SB recentlyhypothesized (can't find the thread)that Brits would be not only somewhat less than thrilledwith American voicing, but actually resistant to the concept.
What am I missing here?
As one who has always bundledEnglish/American organs together asa merehomogeneous entity; is there really a difference; and ifso . . . . what??
Both the cultures have developed slightly different tastes in the concept of an acceptable sound.
The best example I can give of this is when I attended a concert by the Coldstream Guards. The sound was more well-rounded, blended, and perhaps "fatter" than a similar American sound would be. An American sound would be brighter with the ability to readily distinguish specific instruments' timbre from each other.
In mixers, a Behringer will have different base equalization than a SoundDesign. In guitar amplifiers, you'll notice settings for UK vs. US equalization.
While I've never heard a British organ live, I'd suspect the same cultural tastes carry over into that realm as well.
Not sure this is what you're looking for in an answer, but it's the best I can do.
Michael
Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
[quote user="myorgan"]The sound was more well-rounded, blended, and perhaps "fatter" than a similar American sound would be. An American sound would be brighter with the ability to readily distinguish specific instruments' timbre from each other.[/quote]
I've never thought of American organs being "brighter" than British organs. I tend to think of Brit and American organs as both being characterized by a "fatter" sound; in contrast to typically brighter, chiffy, lower wind pressure continental tracker organs.
I believe, that on balance, British/American romantic organsare pretty much the same, and indistinguishable from one another. ?
I agree with Clarion - and I do seem to have noticed thatsome American organs seem to have more of a 'flutey' or even 'theatrical' sound to them, compared to a spiffingly-british Willis.
[quote user="Clarion"]I believe, that on balance, British/American romantic organsare pretty much the same, and indistinguishable from one another. ?[/quote]I'm afraid the question is a bit too broad. "Romantic organs" encompass a very large timespan, and then there are individual builders to consider.
But as for being "indistinguishable" from one another, I would disagree. If I can be as general as possible, I might think of some differences:
British romantic organ builders seem to like large variety of Open Diapasons on the Great. You are more likely to seecertain stops such asClaribel Flutes, Vox Angelicas and Sylvestrinasin the UK.
I notice that many British swell organs seem more likely to have a principal-toned 2' stop, and the celeste stops seem to have amore pungentcharacter. I have heard a number of British organs with very steely mixture stops, where the 2' line seems to predominate - even in thetutti.
Some British instruments have an extremely loud, high-pressure16' Pedal reed, which would only seem to balance with full organ. I don't find that to be typical of instruments in the USA.
If you listen to many recordings of British organs and compare them with American romantic organs (such as Skinners) you will begin to see that the differences can be quite pronounced (even though Skinner was eager to incorporate certain elements from Willis).
Here is a very short list of organs which invite comparison:
Southwark Cathedral
Westminster Abbey
Durham Cathedral
Truro Cathedral
Selby Abbey
St. Bartholomew's, Armley
St. Mary, Redcliffe
Town Hall, Sydney
[/list]
None of these organs sound anything like any U.S. instruments I know.
[quote user="soubasse32"]I'm afraid the question is a bit too broad. "Romantic organs" encompass a very large timespan, and then there are individual builders to consider.
But as for being "indistinguishable" from one another, I would disagree. If I can be as general as possible, I might think of some differences:
British romantic organ builders seem to like large variety of Open Diapasons on the Great. You are more likely to seecertain stops such asClaribel Flutes, Vox Angelicas and Sylvestrinasin the UK.[/quote]
I suspect that I am not alone inregarding the Great Diapasons as the foundation/soul ofthe organ; and those "fat" open/stopped Diapasons, determine an organ'sability to attractamorously disposedpatrons.[:D] If an organ is a success at thefoundational level, then everything else will probably fall into place.
[quote user="soubasse32"] I notice that many British swell organs seem more likely to have a principal-toned 2' stop, and the celeste stops seem to have amore pungentcharacter. I have heard a number of British organs with very steely mixture stops, where the 2' line seems to predominate - even in thetutti.[/quote]
I tend to likerobust celeste stops, and their ability to not only be heard, add an extra dimension of warmthto a fairly well developed foundational chorus. And if you wish to reduce them to theiraccepted traditional role when you wishto utilize them for that purpose, a lot of organs incorporate a gimmickcalled a Swell Pedal. [:)]
As for thesteely mixtures: with most recordings emmanating from large reverberant cathedrals, that's not something that's going to be evident on arecording.
[quote user="soubasse32"] Some British instruments have an extremely loud, high-pressure16' Pedal reed, which would only seem to balance with full organ. I don't find that to be typical of instruments in the USA.[/quote]
My initial impulse when I got my new organ: "Gotta crank that 16' Posaune down a notch or two!!" Now that I'm more familiar with it's use, I've left it the way it was orginallyvoiced, otherwise I would be leftwith a rather anaemic bottom-end when using full-organ. Having done the voicing and setup on my organ, some of the tracks Don Andersonleft behind were intriguingly informative and worthy of consideration. Each and every one of thisGeneral Piston setupsincluded a Swell-to-Pedal coupler. I've been playing around with that a bit, and it actually works! Although it seems a shame to have the 16' Posaune reserved for such rare occassions, the Swell-Pedal coupler turns out to be arather usefuloption!
[quote user="soubasse32"] If you listen to many recordings of British organs and compare them with American romantic organs (such as Skinners) you will begin to see that the differences can be quite pronounced (even though Skinner was eager to incorporate certain elements from Willis) [/quote]
When I think of American-vs-Brit organs: I think of an average American sort of one stop-light medium sized town, with their medium-sized whitewashed churches,with medium sized organs proclaiming their faith commensurate with their resources. Organs based uponRomanticwide-scale foundations tends to be the way-to-go; a skill usually associated with Brits.Nevertheless, American small town organs tend to represent the essence of an entire culture.
[quote user="Clarion"]I tend to likerobust celeste stops, and their ability to not only be heard, add an extra dimension of warmthto a fairly well developed foundational chorus.[/quote]Using celestes with the foundations? [:O] I have seen some French scores with indications to do just that, but the accepted registrational practice is toremove celestes in fuller combinations.
[quote user="Clarion"]As for thesteely mixtures: with most recordings emmanating from large reverberant cathedrals, that's not something that's going to be evident on arecording.[/quote]Hmm... [*-)]Practically allof what I've described is from recordings, and what I hear is quite 'evident'.
[quote user="Clarion"]I tend to likerobust celeste stops, and their ability to not only be heard, add an extra dimension of warmthto a fairly well developed foundational chorus.[/quote]Using celestes with the foundations? [:O] [/quote]
[quote user="soubasse32"] I have seen some French scores with indications to do just that, but the accepted registrational practice is toremove celestes in fuller combinations. [/quote]
Well . . . .Thanks for that! It's somewhat gratifying tolearn that at least I'm not alone. There are atleast afew othersout there who share the sameaberrant fantasy. It's not as if I was somehow intent upondecarling war upon the status quo. It's just, that for my particular organ, addingcelestes to the fondsoffersan embraceable augmentationto the status quo.
Wish I could recall the entire quote and the source, but somewhere I read about a French organist when asked to comment on an English organ said "What am I going to do with five unison diapasons in the Great?" . . . or something to that effect.
Anybody know who I'm talking about? Anyway, the quote sort of reflects what some may think of English organ tone -- a lot of bellowing 8' foundation without a lot of color or upperwork.
This conception is of course false.Willis and many other great British builders produced organs of great power and brilliance and color. Certainly some of the world's greatest organs are in the UK.
I tend tothink likeMichael(way up this thread) that there is a certain roundness, blend, or "fatness" in the English tone, as opposed to a little more transparency, even a certain frontier-likelibertarian independencein the American organs, to my American ears.
John
John
---------- *** Please post your questions about technical service or repair matters ON THE FORUM. Do not send your questions to me or another member by private message. Information shared is for the benefit of the entire organ community, but other folks will not be helped by information we exchange in private messages!
Wish I could recall the entire quote and the source, but somewhere I read about a French organist when asked to comment on an English organ said "What am I going to do with five unison diapasons in the Great?" . . . or something to that effect.
John
[/quote]
Your quote is found on Page 85 of J B Jamison's little book Organ Design and Appraisal, and reads like this: "The Frenchman, whose knowledge (and understanding) of English organs is usually limited, asks,"What should I be doing with four or five unison diapasons?" " The comment was made as part of Jamison's discussion on "the lamentable indifference of organists of the several European countries to the tonal pattern of organs in any land but their own".
Although I like the sound of a good English organ, I'm inclined to agree with the Frenchman.
Mike
My home organ is a Theatre III with an MDS II MIDI Expander.
I fondly think of the Willis Magic Machine in Liverpool Anglican Cathedral with the 5 Open Diapasons on the Great. But yet Willis was able to make something glorious with it. Yes, mefeels that there is a round fatness or fat roundness to the English Sound. But if my memory serves me Willis was greatly inspired by Cavaille-Coll. Willis, imho represents the epitome of English organbuilding bar none.
I fondly think of the Willis Magic Machine in Liverpool Anglican Cathedral with the 5 Open Diapasons on the Great. But yet Willis was able to make something glorious with it. Yes, mefeels that there is a round fatness or fat roundness to the English Sound. But if my memory serves me Willis was greatly inspired by Cavaille-Coll. Willis, imho represents the epitome of English organbuilding bar none.
Cheers,
Kphone
[/quote]
I worked with a former manager of the Ireland Willis III service in NYC
His assessment of Willis III was unflattering
Father Willis yes at the very top
But Willis III was secondary to Arthur harrison of Harrison & Harrison of Durham
Willis III despised Continental chorus reeds and characterized them as blatant
The Liverpool job has a 6th diapason on the great of open wood called ''tibia''
Most of the UK Cathedrals went with Harrisons and not Willis III
[quote user="jbird604"] . . . French organist when asked to comment on an English organ said "What am I going to do with five unison diapasons in the Great?" . . . or something to that effect . . .[/quote]
As far as British romantic organs, I find my inspiration in the rolling 32' Open Wood stops, or in the majestic Tuba stops. With the proper repertoire, these instruments are magnificent. I'mextremely fond ofthe organ at St. Mary, Redcliffe.
But for emotional impact, I still prefer hearing the fonds 8' on a C-C organ. That is a profound, magical sound that is almost impossible to find elsewhere...
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