Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

[Guest]

I have a bit of a quandary and I’d like some input from all you about a variety of issues. The story is long and complicated, so I’m going to break it up into at least a couple of posts. First let me give you a little background. Be patient and you'll see why I am posting this under the Pipe Organ section.

As some of you may know I have built a Hauptwerk virtual pipe organ at my church, Zion Lutheran in Spokane. The console is presently a 2-manual with dual touch screens for stops control with physical piston rails and toe studs above the pedal.

I am planning to upgrade to a 3-manual, and I have acquired 3 matching Klann manuals from a 60’s vintage pipe organ that I am restoring and upgrading to midi. But I am always on the lookout for a good drawknob console that I can either use as-is or salvage the solenoid drawknob assemblies.

The organ at Zion is an ever-evolving project, and continually under improvement. For example, I am planning to upgrade from 16 channels [now] to 24 channels next summer.

The samples that are used for the organ which is played each Sunday are a mish-mash of ranks from various organs I have – Primarily Silbermann principals, Schantz reeds, and a variety of “utility” stops from a couple of 1990’s German parish organs. It works, probably because I have a good ear for mixing ranks and still acheiving a homogenous sound. And the organ is designed to be of the eclectic American Classic style anyway.

I have acquired the Masterworks 1928 E.M. Skinner (dry) sample set from Milan Digital Audio, and when the upgrade to 3-manuals and 24 channels is complete I plan to implement a new organ based primarily around this set.

[Guest]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

A little while back I was sent an email about a console that is available right here in town. I called the number, and after several attempts I talked to the owner of the console. Turns out he not only has the console, but almost the entire pipe organ as well – in storage – here in town.

The organ is a Wicks. But not just any Wicks. It is Wicks opus 3237, originally installed at University Presbyterian near the University of Washington in Seattle in about 1958(?). It is a 4-manual, 6-Division console with about 105 drawknobs and numerous tablet rockers for every conceivable inter/intra manual coupler.

The fellow (a Doctor) acquired the organ when it was replaced by a Reuter in 1999 (apparently the largest Reuter ever built). It was his intention to give the organ to his church here in Spokane when they built a new sanctuary. But time went on and the church decided to build a new gymnasium instead.

I know this church – it’s another Lutheran church across town. The focus there is on youth and young families and “contemporary” music has been much more prevalent there for many years, so it shocked me a bit to hear that his dream was to install this organ there.

Anyway, as I said, time marches on and this organ has been in storage now for over 10 years. But here’s the catch: the organ was stored in three locations and one of those locations burned to the ground.

Lost was most every pipe over 7 feet, the entire Bombarde, all the chests, and all the swell shades, blowers, wood towers, etc.

I spoke about this organ and the console at great length with RonCrowl at Wicks. He assured me that all the drawknobs and rockers are electric solenoid, and should clean up and be trouble free "forever".

Here is a list of the original organ spec: (Ron was kind enough to scan the original documentation at Wicks to PDF and send it to me)

http://zionorgan.com/HWForumImages/3237Spec.pdf

And here is a spreadsheet I put together which shows what pipes were lost and what pipes remain. He also sent me the 'Fire Loss Report' that was submitted to Wicks for insurance purposes.

“x” for existing pipes, “o” for lost pipes. It helps me to visualize what is still available.

http://zionorgan.com/HWForumImages/Wicks%20pipework.pdf

And here is the console (pedalboard is not in the picture)

http://zionorgan.com/HWForumImages/WicksOrgan3237.JPG

[Guest]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

It is the dream of the Doctor (and his wife) to see the organ used somewhere again. I think it has some sentimental value and he’d like to see it made whole again.

I hate to see these pipes just sit idle for all these years, but I have serious doubts – with all the fine organs available at the organ clearing house – that in these times there would be much call for a 105 stop 6-division organ. Especially considering the replacement cost for all the missing pipes and chests, etc. was estimated by Wicks to be $330,000. And then a competent builder would have to install it.

Meanwhile… this may seem a little backwards to some, but I would like to hybrid the Hauptwerk organ at Zion with some real pipes. Particularly a good solid Bourdon 16’, and some façade pipes for the Great, to help disperse the sounds coming from all the speakers.

This is a tall order – matching the tonal quality of the 1928 Skinner I plan to use as the core – but I can’t help but wonder if I could “cherry-pick” just the right ranks and get away with it. This 1958 Wicks is not a neo-baroque organ. I'm guessing it was designed more to head to head with an big A. Skinner American Classic, buta bit more economic.

Unfortunately all the 16’ and 8 foot Principals are gone, but somehow the entire Great Bourdon 16’ with a 12-pipe 8’ extension survived. In fact the entire Choir division which consisted mostly of stopped flutes, strings, and an 8’ Clarinet survived. The only loss there was pipes 1-7 of the Viola 8’ and 1-7 of the Dulciana.

[Guest]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

I've considered offering them $1000 for the console and walking away, but there is something driving me to do more. I cannot get the image of all those pipes, stored in crates, just sitting there - out of my mind.

Another issue is this console is a monster! Far more than we need at Zion. I'm thinking more along the lines of 3-manuals and 50 stops. So I would either have to strip it just for salvage, or somehow gently chop it down to a reasonable size. I'm not sure is that fits into the owners "dream" of having it used again.

So here is a plan I'm hatching: Convince them that this organ is not going anywhere, anytime soon. And I will assist them to liquidate the pipework, rank by rank, in exchange for the console andfirst right of refusal on any of the pipe ranks.

So.. assuming I just started with the 44-pipe Bourdon 16' What would I need to do to get those pipe firing at Zion from a midi controlled console. A new chest withsolenoid pallets that can be controlled via a midi decoder? Blower, etc.

Also, feel free to chime in on anything I've said and help me determine whether this is even a worthwile venture. What sort of costs beyond the pipes and console am I likely to run in to?

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

my preliminary thoughts:

I think I agree with your latest post above: salvage the parts you want for your organ, and the rest, sell off rank by rank to those that need the pipes. With so much missing (in particular the expensive largest pipes) I personally don't think the organ could be salvaged without investing a huge amount of money. The loss of the chests in my opinion dooms the organ as a whole.


Just breifly glancing over what remains I'd keep the following:


SOLO:

8' Cor Anglais


SWELL

8' Stopped Flute
4' Orchestral Flute
8' Trumpet
8' Oboe


GREAT:

4' Octave
4' Rohr Flute
2' Fifteenth


CHOIR

8' Wald Flute
8' Spitz Flute
8' Flute Celeste
2' Blockflute
8' Clarinet


PEDAL

16' Bourdon





Of those ranks I'd take your time and wait on chests to show up on ebay etc and over a year or two find the chests that would most well work with the pipes you have kept (complete sets). There are alot of chests on ebay right now so I think you could probably get that accomplished.


After you get the chests installed, aired up, pick and choose which of the flutes sound best in the church and keep one or two ranks of them and the rest sell off. Use the pipes from the 2' Blockflute to possilby unify further some of the other flute stops.


I'd keep that console as is........after you get the pipes going fill in the drawknobs with digital stops that you think best fill out the organ.


I've left off all the mixtures...there is alot of expense in chests for mixtures so I'd just sell those off to someone who would want them. (I'm not a big mixture fan anyhow but that is just me).


I personally think the main thing worth keeping is the console. Everything else is debatable and just depends if you get the right chests for it and are comfortable releathering etc.

Should not be a problem at all finding a used blower cheap somewhere.


I'd personally not cut up that console at all though...I'd keep it as a memorial to the organ that "once was"...keep some of the voices that you can and digitize the rest! :)

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

oh I WOULD add a real 8' diapason rank.....oodles of those available...or at least find the bottmo 12 notes of a 8' diapason to unify the 4' Octave ..that would work 'great' as well.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

another consideration: how reverberant is the room it would be speaking in? if very reverberant I'd keep all those reeds. If dry I'd stick with JUST the flutes and diapasons and use digital for the rest.

[Guest]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.



I would hate to see a wonderful console 'slice and diced'. I am no expert when it comes to pipes but I know what I like sonically and esthetically. The console would be a great tribute to what once was. . .

Randy Hunt

[Guest]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.



[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]another consideration: how reverberant is the room it would be speaking in? if very reverberant I'd keep all those reeds. If dry I'd stick with JUST the flutes and diapasons and use digital for the rest.[/quote]

Besides that, there a plenty of wonderful reeds in the 1928 EM Skinner. And I figure I don't need the hassle of keeping real pipe reeds in tune.

The room at Zion is barely 1 second. Call it 1-1/2 seconds. A major problem for me. And a major dilema in whether to bother with the EM Skinner sample set (which is utterly dry) to begin with. Maybe I'm wrong about that decay time. See for yourself in this live room recording - I set up the mics all the way across the nave just in front of the Altar. The organ is rear gallery position.
http://zionorgan.com/Organs/Opus1/Tevenan-002.mp3
http://zionorgan.com/Organs/Opus1/Tevenan-005.mp3
(and don't get confused, this is not the "American Classic" organ we use on Sundays, but rather my little Baroque organ - which is only for recital.)

I have gone to great lengths to liven it up a bit. As you can see in this photo, last spring I raised up the "pit" in choir loft - which was entirely carpeted - and installed about 120 square feet of 3/4" solid Vermont maple. [<:o)]

anyway... hope this helps you get a feel for the room.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

if it is digital can't you just add all the reverb you want?

I would tend to skip the reeds entirely in that space...it is not bad, but reeds do require so much tuning, and for the effort involved i'd skip them.

I don't know anything about hauptwerk but can't you add reverberation to the sets?

[Guest]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.



Yes, but it's quite complicated. It's still a very large room so there's plenty of decay for my tastes at 16' and 8' pitch. But because of the high amounts carpeting on the chancel floor and up the aisles, and pew padding - it's the high frequencies that roll off real fast. So any reverb trickery has to be done on a rank by rank basis. A little more decay added to each higher pitch. About 200 milliseconds at 2' and 250 ms at 1-1/3' - added to each sample individually works best. Otherwise it sounds unconvincing. Believe me, I have spent countless hours experimenting.

The problem is the EM Skinner samples are encrypted so I can't do any sort of post-processing to add IR reverb like I normally would. And to add IR to the whole spectrum would sound unconvincing - as I said.

I'm taking your comments about the console under consideration. But mind you I have some size restraints. The choir loft is not very deep, and the organist must see over it to see the choir director. And 4-manuals is really too big of an organ for our space. I adhear to the Lawrence Phelps philosophy that less is more.

Last night I was thinking about saving the Plein Jeux III - but I've been thinking... the biggest problem I have is Intermodulation Distortion which is particularily offensive at 8' pitch. So it would make much more sense to use the same resources (chests, solenoids, etc.) to get 3 ranks of real 8' pipesrather than a 3-rank mixture that could be easily and convincingly done digital.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

can you lower (cut into) the floor where the console would be?

[Guest]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.



John, You're dead-set on me using that console aren't you?[8-|]

I need to actually go see it to get a real feel. But based on the fact that there is as much above the keybed as below, and the distance from the keybed to floor is 31 inches (give or take) I'd say it's 62 - 65" tall and over 6 feet wide.

But the real issue is 6-divisions and 105 stops is just too much organ. For one thing my sound system can only support about 50 digital stops without having way too much intermodulation distortion.

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.

well...... I hear from you folks out in the pacific north west bemoaning the scarcity of large 3/4/5 manual drawknob consoles...one pops up..and you wanna chop it! (ROFL)


It is sorta like taking a vintage automobile and hotrodding it.

Now that was said as a joke and in fun....... in all seriousness... I think that console is probably all that will remain intact of that organ. Wicks didn't make HUGE numbers of large consoles like that so it is quite rare. I agree..it is a beast but with Hauptwerk that console could again be utilized very fully.


If you are looking for a discrete console I'd stick with the one you have and take the Wicks home and make it your living room centerpiece....but that is just me. :)

[Guest]

Re: Seeking lots of advice. Please help.



OK. Maybe you've convinced me. It was all those drawknobs that scared me. (Some other time I'll school you on Intermodulation Distortion and why I need1 channel for every 1 to 2 ranks)

As I study the spec. more carefully I realize that many of those drawknobs are actually inter-manual couplers, trems, carillon, chimes, etc. And there's quite a few blanks, too.

If you take away the Echo division(which was only prepared for) and take away all the percussion-blanks-couplers, then there are "only" 68 speaking stops. And if you take away all the unification, there is only 43 full ranks - counting extended ranks and mixtures as a single rank.

Then... if you subtracted from that number, any real pipe ranks I manage to keep and install... I think I could pull that off with 24 channels and 2 sub-woofers. Especially if I concentrate on keeping only 8' and 4' flue pipe ranks plus the 44-pipe Pedal Bourdon 16'. Since it is 8ft pitch that causes the most offensive IM distortion.

P.S. I have re-contacted Ron Crowl at Wicks to get a quote on rebuilding the missing pipes 1-8 from the Great 1st Principal 8' (facade quality). He responded that he is out of the office this week but will get on it next week - as well as providing me with any more info (blueprints, etc.) that they have on file about this organ.

This leads me to wonder what the opinion is here of Wicks Direct-Electric action. It seems like that - or some other equivalent would be the easiest and most strait forward way to install this in a MIDI driven Hauptwerk system. (Yes, Hauptwerk can drive a pipe organ).

Maybe it's time to rename and/or move this thread. I would have thought more folks would've jumped in on this.