Reed organ idea.

[Guest]

Dear Forum,

I am sorry I haven't been in the forum for a while. Between the concerts and the exams, I have had little time. But regardless:

I recently had an idea concerning reed organs. I had played on a cheap instrument in a mall somewhere, and the melodia stop struck me as sounding very fluty and warm. And so I figure that an organ of pleasing proportions could be concocted from numerous ranks of free reeds. And due to the fact that reeds are not overly expensive, a simply massive instrument could be put together for for the price of a less tonally effective pipe organ. Naturally, however, the reeds are still very limited in their tonal range; no room for massive reed effects of thunderous basses. This could be changed by utilizing different materials for the free reeds in certain stops, for instance, lead for the deep sounds, bamboo for lighter flues, iron for chorus reeds, et cetera.

I have a feeling that there might be already such a free reed organ in the world, but since I am not aware of it, I wonder, would this be a practical method for emulating a pipe organ at a lower cost. Besides the advantages of cost, the pitch of the free reeds does not depend on the wind pressure, so altering the amount of wind in the chests for expressive purposes would be fine. This could greatly expand the dynamic range of a single registration, especially if the division were to be enclosed in a swell box. Also, the instrument would not take nearly as much space, and stops that, in a pipe organ, would require pipes too large to fit in the chamber, could easily fit the most meager chambers.

I am no organ builder, and I would be limited to experiments my little tool shed could accommodate, so I invite others with larger tool sheds (and more full wallets) to experiment. This may just work.

Thanks

[soubasse32]

Re: Reed organ idea.



Hello ryank@12, and welcome back. [:)]

Between the concerts and the exams, I have had little time.

That is an intriguing comment; I wish you could spend more time with us and/or tell us a little more about yourself.

Concerning your question ... there is good news and bad news. It seems there is little new under the sun; what you propose has been done many times over, in the form of reed organs. Unfortunately, reed organs are not considered so desireable these days; just recently several of our members likened the tone to an accordion. [:|]

I personally have a higher opinion of them than that! After all, pump organs were practically as common as upright pianos, appearing in many homes and churches. I suppose that is why I have three of them. [:)] Although most of us are familiar with the American 'pump' organ with its two treadles, there were many reed organs with a full pedalboard and external means of supplying wind. Some of these organs even had three manuals and 32' stops. The tone was never extremely loud, but it was sufficient to fill a large room.Some drawbacks were that the tone didn't vary too much (in spite of many fanciful stop names), and the onset of speech is quite slow - if you are thinking of having a practice organ there are times when this is unhelpful, i.e., the Widor Toccata is rather tedious to play on such an instrument. However, with more sustained pieces the results can be very musical and satisfying, in a sort of 'old-timey' way.

The European cousin to the American reed organ - the Harmonium - is a different thing altogether. Although the tones are similarly limited, the volume is not. By pumping faster/slower you can achieve a very expressive crescendo/diminuendo. There aredrawbacks to this however; if you are controlling the expression via the treadles you are obviously not able to play pedal notes. The Harmonium's tone is much louder and fairly pleasing; there are many anecdotes about people being fooled into thinking they are hearing the softer stops on a pipe organ when entering a French church.

Finally, there are indeed free reed stops on some pipe organs. These were somewhat experimental, appearing during the earlier part of the romantic era (approx. the 1840's), appearing on French, German, American, and British (?) instruments for the next half century. The appeal was that these stops were 'expressive', being controlled by a swell shoe. However, similar results can be had by placing pipes within aconventional enclosure,thus bypassingthe need to build such unconventional stops.Additional factors led to their demise:the tone was very soft relative to the rest of the organ; since the reeds are short they are prone to being out of tune with the rest of the organ.

Many organs - some famous, such as the Walcker at Methuen -have had their free reed stops replaced. Others, such as the Walker at Riga Dom, still have free reed stops... and these are now prized as rare examples of a curiousity in organbuilding.

Ultimately, I think it is the lack of tonal variety, the (relatively) meager tonal output, and the slowness of speech that makes the use of reed organs less than desireable ... when you consider the alternatives.

I'd like nothing more than for churches to refurbish some of these old pump organs that would otherwise sit in a garage or end up in a landfill. They might actually be preferable in some cases, such as for an intimate service. Or when the power goes out. [:)]

[Guest]

Re: Reed organ idea.



To be honest, I had never encountered any reed organs of the size you mention (3 manuals and pedal). I had always thought of reed organs as tiny little creatures. My idea was mostly a proposition, as I have never played an American reed organ besides the cheap instrument in the mall that I mentioned. I have played harmoniums before, however. They seem to be much less like an organ than their American counterparts; they seem like a completely different instrument, to be used in Strauss operas and Mahler 8 and such, but not in organ literature. I agree with you about the uses of reed organs in intimate services. My church has a big, ugly instrument which is only capable of loud sounds and a few isolated inaudible flutes. Playing soft hymns is a challenge, and everyone complains that my Good Friday services are too loud. Maybe I should persuade my church to buy a small reed organ, especially as many of them are ending up in landfills (what a pity). Anyway.

I was thinking, though, about using different materials for the reeds, though, to extend the timbral range of a single frequency. I will keep experimenting with using different materials. If I hit on something that works, I will let the forum know. For now, though, I guess pipes are still the preferred medium (not much of a surprise. If they have been the preferred medium for five hundred years, I doubt we will come of with anything new and effective besides electronics).

Thanks.

[soubasse32]

Re: Reed organ idea.



Thanks for that post.

I'm curious though... what sort oforgandoes your church have, that it is either too loud or too soft? Is it a pipe organ? It seems rather odd that ithas so littleto choose from, since you say it is a large installation. [*-)]

Now that I think about it, there are certain pipe organs that come to mind - but I won't mention any names. [;)]

[Clavier]

Re: Reed organ idea.

[quote user="soubasse32"]

just recently several of our members likened the tone to an accordion. [:|]

I personally have a higher opinion of them than that!

[/quote]

I do too. I simply used that example to point out that many people feel that way about them. I love my M&H, it has a full, gutsy tone that one can really feel! It's tonal variety is more varied than many and the pedals are excellent! I'm very grateful to have stewardship of such a fantastic instrument. [:D]

[Guest]

Re: Reed organ idea.



In response to Soubasse's query: The organ at my church is a pipe organ. It is fairly sizable, with three manuals and pedal, and a few decent choruses. It is actually an instrument cobbled together from various bits of Skinner, Möller and Holtkamp organs (the church was a house before the owner died and the building was converted to a church. The organ was pieced together by the owner of the house, so the instrument really was a giant home organ project). Sadly, the room is not large enough for the instrument, so the ensembles tend to be overwhelmingly loud. In fact, only the Aeoline is capable of an actual piano; everything else is voiced too loud. There is also a pair of nasty Dulzians at 16' and 8' on the Swell, for some weird reason. I have given up on ever using them, they are just too loud to use for any registration, even tutti. Worst off, they have a bad habit of ciphering at inconvenient times (for instance, during the sermon). It is not really the fault of the organ, but the room is really too small. I admit, though, that a tutti is quite thrilling, if prepared for with extreme economy of registration, otherwise, the everlasting forte can really be bothersome. It is fine for Easter, of course, when all the congregation wants is bombardes and plenums, but Good Friday always ends up sounding too exuberant.

[telemanr]

Re: Reed organ idea.

[quote user="ryank@12"]


I have played harmoniums before, however. They seem to be much less like an organ than their American counterparts; they seem like a completely different instrument, to be used in Strauss operas and Mahler 8 and such, but not in organ literature.

[/quote]

French organ literature abounds in music written for the harmonium. For instance, Vierne in his"Pieces en style libre" has suggested registration for the harmonium. There is just scads of stuff written specificallyfor the instrument.

Rob

[Havoc]

Re: Reed organ idea.



Here there are quite a few harmoniums in churches. Often in deplorable state. Our church has (have?) a 2 manual one in the sacristy use for choir repetition when there was still a choir. And the church I have organ lessons use one in the winter chapel.

As far as composers go, the famous Louis Vierne had a brother Renè that wrote a Method for playing the harmonium. Some pieces of Rinck also translate well on the harmonium. And then there is of course Karg-Elert. And it is also used in Finish traditional music.

I should have mine restored one day.

[Guest]

Re: Reed organ idea.

I was not aware that the Vierne "Pieces" could be played on a harmonium. I will look for the edition with the harmonium registrations; my edition is written on three staves with a completely independent pedal, which I would hate to compress to two hands at sight. The music sounds so grand with a pipe organ, though, and I wonder how good or bad it would turn out on a harmonium. Should be fun.

[soubasse32]

Re: Reed organ idea.



Hi Ryan,

I think you might have mistaken the 24 Pièces de Fantaisie for the 24 Pièces en Style Libre -the Free-style pieces are all written on two staves withoptional Pedal indicated;they can be played on pipe organ or harmonium. I don't believe these have been re-published on three staves, unless you have a very unusual edition(?).

Most organists start withthe Free-style pieces, as they are a great deal simpler and are also quite useful for service playing.

[Guest]

Re: Reed organ idea.



Your idea is so good and sensible that it's already been tried to a limited extent. The idea of making free reeds from some other material than brass or phospher-bronze has been tried and the results have always re-affirmed the exclusive use of brass or p.b.. The reed organ manufacturing business in N.A. was large. Estey Organs produced over a million reed organs by 1920--and they had lots of competition. Fortunes were made in the reed organ business. If there'd been a better way or a novel approach to the making of reeds other than brass, I'm sure it was tried--and it failed. 

Somewhere in my collection of books I have one on the American Reed organ. I recall from it that the largest reed organ reportedly built had 3 manuals and pedal as well as about 1000 reeds. It was installed in a church--and despite the obvious advantages of maintaining a reed organ vrs. a pipe organ there's no trace of this organ and no record of it giving lasting satisfaction. I've seen one instance of a 2m reed organ with pedal being installed in a chapel to accompany hymn singing. The chapel was an acoustic trap and the reed organ was used for about 2 weeks before plans were hatched to get a used e. organ.

The American reed organ (melodian) is an instrument that gives solitary satisfaction for anyone who might enjoy playing one. But it has too many inherit flaws and restrictions, imposed by it's design, to ever give it a place of advantage or alternative, to a pipe organ or an e.organ.

The "missionary" organs that wrap up into a wooden case the size of a large suitcase are about the only practical instance of a reed organ being able to do something better than a pipe or e. organ: The ability to be transported anywhere, set up in a minute and without electricity be able to produce music from a small keyboard, inside or outside.