Ebay Classic organs

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

1899 Kimball Parlor Organ

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    I appreciate your thoughts on this. I made some screen shots of the video I have from Johnson Music where they are using a Kimball to demonstrate repair and recovering. It looks like the Vox Humana hole is dead center above between the slots for the bellows.

    In this picture, the bellows are being removed from the rear of the organ, and the cutouts are near the back.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	vlcsnap-2017-08-31-01h25m24s560.png
Views:	1
Size:	459.2 KB
ID:	603058


    In this picture, the windchest is turned in the opposite direction. That's the row of pallet valves, reeds, etc. at top. Below them, the Vox Humana hole is in the center. I'm not sure what the part above it is - it may be a support to keep the top from sagging.


    Click image for larger version

Name:	vlcsnap-2017-08-31-00h43m49s184.png
Views:	1
Size:	443.0 KB
ID:	603059


    So it does appear to be on the same side of the air box as the bellows.

    Arndt does say to mount on the bellows if you want to use the organ as powered or pumped. Since my ultimate aim is to give this organ to my mom, it needs to be able to run fully electrically. I wouldn't mind being able to use both or one or the other until then.

    It could very well be that I picked a hole that's too small. The instructions didn't recommend a size, but the flanges are 2 1/4". Hmm. That does sound a bit odd, doesn't it? Like why else would they use such a big hose?

    Well, I should have a ten-foot flex hose here by Wednesday. I'll have to decide where to put the real hole by then. I'll also be able to put the suction unit around the corner where I can keep an eye on it while I'm playing. I'm trying a hose intended for saw-dust collection. I did found a source for the nice black silicon-rubber hose like Arndt uses, but it's a 250-ft min. order... and they, I found out, order it precut for their application.

    In the diagram, with the bellows removed, Arndt is showing the hole being made right in the center of the rear of the foundation board with the relief valve relocated up there, too. I wouldn't want to put the connection and hose on the rear of the bellows - it moves. There's also no room for the flange on the feeder side.
    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
    -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

    Comment


    • #62
      Mr. Polecat, hats off to you here. I made a 2" hole and mounted the flange on top of the air box. It just happened to land over a mounting screw for the bellows. I now have an automated organ and the Vox Humana spins like a fiend.

      So... this answers an indirect question. Since the suction pump does not mind running with no air flow (as would happen if no playing keys were pressed) and we have learned that a too-small opening only adds a partial assist, a variable assist could be had with a calibrated obstruction, such as a cable-operated iris. A calibrated assist could be added with something as simple as a restrictor plate.

      Running on the suction unit makes the organ too loud, even with every stop pulled and the Vox Humana whirling. This is a 200 sq. ft. room, but the organ is currently backed up to a door to a 600 sq. ft. room with 10 ft ceilings and has the two back panels removed. It's loud. :0
      -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
      -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
      -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

      Comment


      • #63
        And so... experiment, experiment. I made up three restriction plates out of quarter-inch thickness board cut in 2" circles. I made holes of 3/8, 5/8, and 3/4". The smallest one is the mildest assist. With it on the suction unit, the flap does not flap much. The largest one is a full automation - the organ is loud and pumping doesn't make much difference. Without the restrictor plate, the organ is TOO LOUD. The big bass reeds HONK.

        So this gets us to the middle one. It's just right. It barely makes a tone at first, but will support four or five notes in a couple of seconds. Pumping gently wakes things up and, if the Vox Humana has stopped, the first pair of pumps gets it going. I rather like this -- it's like having power steering (yes, my first couple of cars did not) in that I still have to pump, but it responds to the pumping.

        This is probably how the organ will feel when I get the bellows recovered. (At least I hope so.)
        -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
        -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
          Well, first experiments with the suction unit are now underway. The thing is a "Lee Silent 'ORGAVAC' Reed Organ Suction Unit model #RO-6." It provides 2 1/2" of vacuum and has an 1/8 hp motor.

          I'm using the 3/8" hole under the Vox Humana for now. The unit only came with about 14" of flex hose, as it's intended to be mounted in place of the bellows and have the flex hose go straight up to the windchest.

          The suction pump won't fit anywhere inside the organ, so I'll need more flex hose - I might as well put it in the other room, which is the garage.

          I also ordered the optional check valve. This is a boxy spring-loaded affair that sits over the inlet. The aluminum impeller is visible inside the inlet. On the side is an exhaust flapper valve, and the motor is visible through that opening.

          So... how's it work? Well, it won't power the organ the way it's installed. I still need to pump the pedals. However, not nearly as much, and the drain-down time when holding a chord and stopping pumping actually exists now. :0

          Their suggestion is to put the connection on the bellows if wanting to use both/either. It's not closing the bellows now, which I sort of thought it would. Guess it won't overcome the spring pressure.

          I have some decisions to make here. I do like the unit - it looks well built and durable, and it's not objectionably loud (but "silent" not exactly). I'm thinking of making the connection atop the windchest approximately in line with the Vox Humana. Then I could still use the organ (without the check valve) if the bellows are out for an extended time. I'm look forward to actually using the Vox Humana. So far, it's been pump, pump, pump, whir, whir, pump, pump, whir, whir...

          Tomorrow I'll go looking for some longer flex hose.
          Unless you mount the check valve where the hose connects to the organ, you will be disappointed.
          Casey

          - - - Updated - - -

          Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
          Here are some worn playing keys. I'm tempted to leave them as they are. For one thing, it's authentic, and I can tell this organ was well-loved, well-used. For another, I don't know what they're made of, but the color goes entirely through them - they're not covered in paint or indigo or indian ink.

          [ATTACH=CONFIG]27347[/ATTACH]


          I haven't been very busy this week, but I temporarily rigged up an old piano bench to be 21 1/2" x 23 1/4" high and sloped in order to mimic a Mason & Hamlin style 3 pump organ bench. For my trouble I got... a backache. It could be coincidence.

          In other news, I found that the horizontal board above the pedals - the one that has the cutouts for the rollers - has cracked a fairly large piece loose where the right-hand feeder spring fits into a notch in it. I placed the spring end just above the notch and it tried to push through again. Hmm... this board is part of the cross-spine of the organ. The boards for the platform that holds up the works, the bellows, and some corner angle boards all attach to it. It's not going to be great fun to get to even when the works and bellows are out.

          For the time being, I put a wooden stop in to prevent the pedals from going down that last inch or so where the springs exert maximum force on the cross board.

          I had joked in another thread that the Diapason and Principal and the Melodia and Echo Horn all sound alike. They basically do on this organ, so that requires some attention when I get in there.

          I've decided that I am going to put it back together so that it can be operated by the bellows or a pump. To familiarize myself with installing and using one, I ordered the smaller model (2.5" suction) from Arndt Organ Supply. It should be here this week.

          So... so far, so good. I haven't found any terrible problems with this old princess.
          Here's my video on cleaning celluloid keys:
          https://youtu.be/TEjfD44lGng

          Comment


          • #65
            Thanks, Casey. I would prefer to mount the check valve at the organ end, but it's designed to mount on the unit itself. So far, so good. I like having just a little assist, like I mentioned, like power steering. I do have the choice of mounting the restrictor on the organ end or the suction pump end. Well, I think I could mount the CV on the organ, but it's bulky. I'll have to do some measurements.

            Thanks also for the link. I'll watch it.
            -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
            -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

            Comment


            • #66
              The problem will be when you try to use the bellows, and the flex hose "absorbs" some of the wind that could be used for the reeds. The closer the valve is to what it is trying to contain (in this case the vacuum in the reservoir), the better.
              Casey

              Comment


              • #67
                Thanks - I understand. I'll have to pluck with this more. The problem may be even worse since I'm planning to try dust collection hose.

                On edit - Well, there's not room to put it on top where I mounted the flange, and there's not even room to mount it on the BOTTOM of the foundation board. This suggests mounting it on the back of the organ. That won't be too beautiful... but it would solve the problem.
                -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                  Thanks - I understand. I'll have to pluck with this more. The problem may be even worse since I'm planning to try dust collection hose.

                  On edit - Well, there's not room to put it on top where I mounted the flange, and there's not even room to mount it on the BOTTOM of the foundation board. This suggests mounting it on the back of the organ. That won't be too beautiful... but it would solve the problem.
                  The flange can be mounted on the back board of the reservoir.
                  Casey

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Thanks, Casey. Same effect, though. Up on the air box where I have it now will work with the bellows removed. I was planning to add a door in the back to pass the flex hose through anyway. I'll get a picture of this mess. :O
                    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                    -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      As far as your volume problems now, does your blower have some mechanism for adjusting the amount of vacuum that is applied to the bellows?

                      I am not sure how that ought to be done on something like this. My old grain cleaner uses a slider to introduce an intentional "leak" into the system at the same time that the slide partially covers the blower hole, to turn down the blower. I guess if one were to just try to reduce the size of the blower hole without an intentional "leak", the smaller hole might just act like a venturi or something, and the air coming out would just speed up and you'd end up with the same vacuum as with a larger hole? If you know what I am saying?

                      I dunno....

                      I think if I were going to install a blower in mine, I'd definitely want to have some means of using a pedal of some sort to vary the vacuum in the bellows, for expression purposes.
                      1914 Estey Parlor Organ. 196x Allen T-12a "Special" (MIDI VPO project). Digital piano. Various guitars. Autoharp. Banjo. Bowed saw. Musical Cat.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Thanks, Mr. PC. We're up late...

                        I actually think I'm on the right path here. The idea of introducing an orifice and sizing it seems to be working well. I like getting an amplified effect on the pedals while still being able to go very soft, soft and very loud, loud. That soft, soft is an eye-opener because there is not much pulsation to be had, which I always had with very slow pumping when I wanted soft. I mean now I can go down VERY soft before I hear pulsing.

                        I thought about a variable valve sort of thing. Maybe a slide valve or other type. I couldn't find any 2" iris valves to be had, but I was thinking about the kind that is in the bottom of commercial blenders. They're cable operated.

                        I don't think the Orgavac needs a bypass. It's designed to run without any key presses, perhaps for an extended time, like leaving the organ "running" when getting music together, or during the service, or going to... lunch.

                        And kind of another thing, introducing a deliberate bleed would add to the noise level. That's the reason I'm trying to get it away from the organ...

                        I was planning to add a "door" on the back of the organ to pass the flex hose through. Since Casey pointed out that I don't want the check-valve on the Orgavac end (lest I suck out the flex hose as well as the bellows when pumping), I've changed the plan to mounting the check valve on the back of the organ. (It needs a flat, clean surface to seal to, and its base is 6 x 6 inches.)

                        I uploaded an image of what it looks like to my gallery. When admin OKs it, I'll link it into this thread.

                        Anyway, I have my ten-foot flexible hose coming and will experiment with having the pump at a little distance.

                        By the way, I don't LOVE the idea of having the check valve on the back of the organ, but so far I'm not finding the 6 x 6 x 5 + bend radius flat spot I need inside the organ. (And, of course, the the valve needs to "face" the organ, i.e. greater pressure from the bellows should close the valve. The check-valve is there to protect the pump AND to prevent reverse flow through the pump if it's not running and the organ is being played.)

                        You know, with all this plotting and planning, the easiest thing to do would just be to set the pump down beside the organ. The proof of concept is WORKING right now, and that would only take a few feet more flex hose. Hmm... I LIKE this idea.

                        In other news - I also made a slightly larger orifice and got my mom to try the organ. She's been a pianist all her life, but has had VERY little experience with organs, mainly an aunt's pump organ when she was a teen. Fortunately she likes the sound of the Kimball. This will take some fine tuning to find a sweet spot, but I think I'll find a reasonable volume base level that she likes without having to go to full suction and the loudness that entails. She'll still be able to get more volume by pumping, operating the knee lever, or pulling the Forte stops.
                        -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                        -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                        -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Here's the suction pump sitting behind the organ. That's the check-valve on top. It's pre-wired with the plug-in cord and a zip-cord with an on/off switch.

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Suction_Pump_Location.JPG
Views:	1
Size:	207.7 KB
ID:	603085
                          -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                          -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                          -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I got the 10 ft flex hose in, and I'm trying it out. It's transparent, made of PVC, and has a metallic spring winding. Its intended use is chip/sawdust collection. It's both flexible and supportive, showing no signs of creaking or compacting. With the check valve in place at the unit, I can still pump the organ up to play it manually. This is with a 1/2" orifice, which may be a bit much. I'm going to try a slightly smaller opening. I'd like for the suction to just barely play the organ so the pedaling still makes the organ respond.

                            I have two more gasketed 2 1/2" Delrin flanges coming from Arndt to construct a pass-trough on the back of the cabinet.

                            The hose appears to have come from Peachtree Woodworking Supply in Atlanta to Amazon in Kentucky, and then back to me east of Atlanta.

                            In other news, I'm still using the old piano bench with the top tilted with about a 1 1/2" drop. It took about a week for my poor old back to get used to it, but the good news is that it gets me up higher on the keyboard and frees up my lungs so I can make a joyful noise. (At least the birds outside seem to enjoy it.)
                            -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                            -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                            -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              As promised (some while ago) here are a couple of pictures of the blower coupling contraption I removed from my Mannborg Tudor. The assembly is fitted on the inside with some kind of controllable flap valve no doubt to regulate the airflow. The extension piece has been damaged as it protrudes about 3" outside the back of the organ and in the past some unscrupulous transporters laid the organ on its back, mangling this extension piece. I removed it and sealed the mounting hole simply as it is not needed and to have a little better access to the insides when necessary. It was not connected to the pushrods in any event.

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20170913_072944.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	106.1 KB
ID:	603135Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20170913_072954.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	108.4 KB
ID:	603136

                              Maybe I'll put it back some day....

                              Nico
                              "Don't make war, make music!" Hammonds, Lowreys, Yamaha's, Gulbransens, Baldwin, Technics, Johannus. Reed organs. Details on request...

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Thanks, Nico. Hmm... shutter inside I guess, and it's cable (well, pushrod) operated. Hmm. I'm still thinking of making some slide or iris in the pump side to provide variable suction (although the orifice idea is working fine). Is that a spring-loaded dump valve on the bottom?

                                I explored making a similar box to go inside the organ, but space atop is at a premium. The fall-board mechanism (part of which is visible in the last picture up there, swings in an arc to the rear, and there is also the Vox Humana and some stops mechanism hanging off the back of the works. Something similar to yours would have been good if fore-planned, but what I ended up doing was to provide a pass-through to the outside of the organ, and, hey, it protrudes about three inches. This will give me plenty of room to unhook the flex-hose when removing the back. It's oogly, but not as oogly as mounting that check valve back there would have been.

                                On another front, I saw a video on YouTube where a gentleman was saying that many of the organs that come into his shop have the back removed, and he said that was because the owners were looking for more sound from the organ. With the back removed on the Kimball, I get a noticeably reduced sound, but that's because the "speaker" openings are toward the front.

                                I've read that Kimball had quality problems with their pianos about when this organ was made. They hired efficiency experts to watch the construction process, and went on the become the biggest manufacturer of pianos in America. They blew that, even, and after a while did it again.

                                Thanks again for the pictures. They're food for thought.
                                -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Classic, 1899 Kimball mirrored high top
                                -- Rodgers W5000, Roland RD300nx, Juno DS-61B and DS-88 - 1975 Conn 643 Theater - 1959 Hammond M3
                                -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X