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  • Question about repairing pedal of pump organ

    Hi,

    I own an antique Kimbell pump organ, which is in a good working condition except for one pedal defunctioned.

    After removing the cover plate in front of pedal, seems like the metal support between the pedal belt and the pump was missing. It looks like a Y-shaped slingshot bent and bonded by two iron sheets (please check the attach photo).

    Would like to know that, are there any online shop that I could buy this item and repair by myself? Or do you have any other useful ideas?

    By the way, my physical location is Worcester, MA 01609, possibly there are organ shops / repair technicians that I could find or buy that item from them...?

    Thank you so much in advance for all of your kind recommendations!

    Patrick

    Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    Hi Patrick and welcome to the Forum.

    You are probably referring to the return spring which is a blade in the shape of a Y. The picture is not clear but if you should look at the left pedal assembly you will find its opposite number. These springs are normally just wedged in place and easy to remove for a sample. A good engineering shop could help there if you show them the sample.

    Good luck and please let us know how you get on.

    Nico
    "Don't make war, make music!" Hammonds, Lowreys, Yamaha's, Gulbransens, Baldwin, Technics, Johannus. Reed organs. Details on request...

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi, Patrick, and indeed welcome. Cool beans - I have a Kimball, too. Mine is a 1899 mirrored parlor with no options.

      You could try this company for the bellows springs.

      http://www.stevespianoservice.com/On...rgan-parts.htm

      If that won't work, one of our more experienced reed organ folks will probably have suggestions for a source.

      Look at the wooden cross-member above the pedals and see if the bottom of the wood where it's notched for the V-spring has broken out. The notches are just to the outside of the wooden rollers. If that breaks loose, the V-spring can fall straight down to the floor inside the organ.

      This board on mine had cracked/broken loose at the original slot, and the grippy points had been repositioned a few times to compensate. I made the bottom of the board stiffer with Gorilla brand super glue applied QUICKLY with a cotton swab, and then I used what was left of the original slot. I would take the top off and lay the organ down before doing it the same way again.

      Mine also had the bellows straps repaired with blue-jeans-like denim attached by a heavy-duty stapler when I got it.

      Also, my famous Kimball thread linked below may be helpful.
      Last edited by Silken Path; 06-26-2018, 12:52 AM.
      -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
      -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
      -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
      -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
      -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

      Comment


      • #4
        I notice that the leather flap valve is missing from the right side feeder bellows. This renders it useless for moving air. If one has crumbled and fallen off, they all need replacing.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wow. Good catch, Casey. Forest for the trees... Patrick, these folks

          http://www.arndtorgansupply.com/

          are wonderful people and will sell the leather strips for the flaps without having to buy the steer. Also, you may be able to look in the holes with your flashlight to see if the other set of flaps are there. (I haven't tried that.)
          -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
          -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
          -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
          -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
          -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
            Hi, Patrick, and indeed welcome. Cool beans - I have a Kimball, too. Mine is a 1899 mirrored parlor with no options.

            You could try this company for the bellows springs.

            http://www.stevespianoservice.com/On...rgan-parts.htm

            If that won't work, one of our more experienced reed organ folks will probably have suggestions for a source.

            Look at the wooden cross-member above the pedals and see if the bottom of the wood where it's notched for the V-spring has broken out. The notches are just to the outside of the wooden rollers. If that breaks loose, the V-spring can fall straight down to the floor inside the organ.

            This board on mine had cracked/broken loose at the original slot, and the grippy points had been repositioned a few times to compensate. I made the bottom of the board stiffer with Gorilla brand super glue applied QUICKLY with a cotton swab, and then I used what was left of the original slot. I would take the top off and lay the organ down before doing it the same way again.

            Mine also had the bellows straps repaired with blue-jeans-like denim attached by a heavy-duty stapler when I got it.

            Also, my famous Kimball thread linked below may be helpful.
            Hi Lamar,

            Thanks so much for your warm welcome and kind response!

            The website you've provided is truly useful! I believe this shop would provide the correct items.

            However, I am too ignorant to pump organs and still not understand something... Would like to know that, is the term "bellow spring" refer to the Y-shape return spring that I've mentioned? From the picture at your provided website, bellow spring (451314) looks like a long plastic tube, but not something Y-shaped. Also, seems like none of the items shown in that picture looks Y-shape, or something similar to the shape I was looking for...

            Also, since the website mentioned both size and pressure, I think I could try to measure the dimension (although there is only one figure given e.g. 8'' long and I'm very unfamiliar to imperial units), but what tool that I could use to measure the lbs of pressure?

            Apologise for this lengthy questions as a complete beginner... hopefully you won't feel these questions stupid or annoying...

            Appreciates again!
            Patrick

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by SubBase View Post
            I notice that the leather flap valve is missing from the right side feeder bellows. This renders it useless for moving air. If one has crumbled and fallen off, they all need replacing.
            Hi Casey,

            Thank you for pointing out! Yes, the valve flap is indeed missing. I was initially thinking that it's a comparatively minor issue so didn't point it out in this post.

            But as you said, this is also a key problem and need to be repaired properly. I will buy the leather strips from the shops posted by Lamar, would like to know that, do you have any suggestions about putting the leather strips on those holes - can I directly put it on by using some kind of glues?

            Cheers,
            Patrick

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by Organfella View Post
            Hi Patrick and welcome to the Forum.

            You are probably referring to the return spring which is a blade in the shape of a Y. The picture is not clear but if you should look at the left pedal assembly you will find its opposite number. These springs are normally just wedged in place and easy to remove for a sample. A good engineering shop could help there if you show them the sample.

            Good luck and please let us know how you get on.

            Nico
            Hi Nico,

            Thank you so much for your warm welcome and kind guidance!

            Yes it should be the return spring, previously I don't know this term due to my limitation to English language and knowledge of organ...

            I am currently outside for vacation, but will try to remove it (any hints for avoiding breakage?) and take it to any engineering shop after I return home. Will definitely update once I have any progress.

            Cheers,
            Patrick
            Last edited by Patrick Huang; 06-29-2018, 03:48 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think your bellow spring will be one of these:

              Reed Organ and Player Piano Bellows Springs-
              Outward pressure-- If in doubt, replace them.
              May come with ring attached to make installation easier.
              8 lb. Thrust- 8" long- 451314 in the graphic SH8008 $ 12.90
              6 lb. Thrust- 6" long- 451314 in the graphic SO206 $ 35.75
              10 lb. Thrust- 12" long- 451314 in the graphic SO210 $ 43.95
              20 lb. Thrust- 12" long- 451314 in the graphic SO220 $ 54.75
              30 lb. Thrust- 12" long- 451314 in the graphic SO230 $ 55.95

              The question is... 10, 20, or 30 lbs. Casey or Nico may know. Not me!

              I see they have have the flap material precut, too.

              Bellows Valve Flap- Leather- Pair
              2-1/4 inches wide by 14 inches long DA440 $ 14.80 / pair
              2-3/4 inches wide by15 inches long DA441 $ 16.50 / pair
              -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
              -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
              -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
              -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
              -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

              Comment


              • #8
                Salvaged spring set on ebay, the larger ones go inside the reservoir bellows, the smaller are return springs for the pumpers.
                https://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-of-4-St...wAAOSw7P5bLoRE

                The flap valves get attached with upholstery tacks, 3/8" long.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you again Lamar,

                  I am planning to buy the bellow springs. But according to item number it should be 451314, but the corresponding graph looks like this:

                  Click image for larger version

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                  This completely confused me since my bellow spring looks like a Y-shaped metal thing, but the graph just looks like a long rubber tube.

                  Did I mistaken anything?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi, Patrick - I think it is the V-shaped metal thing, but it has a "hog-ring" holding it closed for shipping. Look closely and you can see the barbs sticking out of the ring. At least that's what I THINK it is.

                    But - did you look at the ones on eBay that Casey mentioned? $21.98 is the buy-it-now price for all four and it has 17 days left. He's also showing $8.15 for economy shipping. I think I'd go with that.

                    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-of-4-St...oRE&rmvSB=true
                    -- I'm Lamar -- 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
                    -- 1899 Kimball Parlor Organ (forum thread)
                    -- 1999 Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000C for spares
                    -- Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112 - Roland RD300nx stage piano
                    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I see you're in Worcester; down rt 20 in Palmer is Nelson Pease, who has buildings full of reed organs and parts. Bring the good spring with you and he can match it.
                      nbpease@comcast.net
                      say Casey sent you!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Patrick Huang View Post
                        Hi Lamar,

                        Thanks so much for your warm welcome and kind response!

                        The website you've provided is truly useful! I believe this shop would provide the correct items.

                        However, I am too ignorant to pump organs and still not understand something... Would like to know that, is the term "bellow spring" refer to the Y-shape return spring that I've mentioned? From the picture at your provided website, bellow spring (451314) looks like a long plastic tube, but not something Y-shaped. Also, seems like none of the items shown in that picture looks Y-shape, or something similar to the shape I was looking for...

                        Also, since the website mentioned both size and pressure, I think I could try to measure the dimension (although there is only one figure given e.g. 8'' long and I'm very unfamiliar to imperial units), but what tool that I could use to measure the lbs of pressure?

                        Apologise for this lengthy questions as a complete beginner... hopefully you won't feel these questions stupid or annoying...

                        Appreciates again!
                        Patrick

                        - - - Updated - - -



                        Hi Casey,

                        Thank you for pointing out! Yes, the valve flap is indeed missing. I was initially thinking that it's a comparatively minor issue so didn't point it out in this post.

                        But as you said, this is also a key problem and need to be repaired properly. I will buy the leather strips from the shops posted by Lamar, would like to know that, do you have any suggestions about putting the leather strips on those holes - can I directly put it on by using some kind of glues?

                        Cheers,
                        Patrick

                        - - - Updated - - -



                        Hi Nico,

                        Thank you so much for your warm welcome and kind guidance!

                        Yes it should be the return spring, previously I don't know this term due to my limitation to English language and knowledge of organ...

                        I am currently outside for vacation, but will try to remove it (any hints for avoiding breakage?) and take it to any engineering shop after I return home. Will definitely update once I have any progress.

                        Cheers,
                        Patrick
                        Hey Patrick ... I am new here too and restoring a Kimball parlor model from early 1900's. You will get gobbs of good info from the guys here. Mine was missing the exhauster return springs also. I found a set of four on ebay from the same vendor SubBass is providing you with a link for here. They are the correct springs and the ones I received are in perfect condition. The price is great. As has been pointed out make sure the wood where these springs mount is all there; not cracked or missing pieces. Mine was ratched which is how the springs go missing. Also take a little caution handling these springs. They literally have teeth. Good luck with it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by Silken Path View Post
                          Hi, Patrick - I think it is the V-shaped metal thing, but it has a "hog-ring" holding it closed for shipping. Look closely and you can see the barbs sticking out of the ring. At least that's what I THINK it is.

                          But - did you look at the ones on eBay that Casey mentioned? $21.98 is the buy-it-now price for all four and it has 17 days left. He's also showing $8.15 for economy shipping. I think I'd go with that.

                          https://www.ebay.com/itm/Set-of-4-St...oRE&rmvSB=true
                          Sorry for my late response and appreciate so much Lamar!

                          I guess that's the proper explanation as well, a V-shape may not be good for shipping and it might be bind like this for easy shipping.

                          Yes that item very suites me since it contains 4 sizes, and it's in very good price. I have purchased it and would like to install it once I get the item.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by SubBase View Post
                          I see you're in Worcester; down rt 20 in Palmer is Nelson Pease, who has buildings full of reed organs and parts. Bring the good spring with you and he can match it.
                          nbpease@comcast.net
                          say Casey sent you!
                          Hi Casey,

                          Sorry for my late response (actually didn't realise there're two pages).

                          Yes I've found the address if I'm not mistaken: Pease Collection of Historical, 1351 Main St, Palmer, MA 01069, and I believe the host would be glad to know Casey sent me there!

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by cdm View Post
                          Hey Patrick ... I am new here too and restoring a Kimball parlor model from early 1900's. You will get gobbs of good info from the guys here. Mine was missing the exhauster return springs also. I found a set of four on ebay from the same vendor SubBass is providing you with a link for here. They are the correct springs and the ones I received are in perfect condition. The price is great. As has been pointed out make sure the wood where these springs mount is all there; not cracked or missing pieces. Mine was ratched which is how the springs go missing. Also take a little caution handling these springs. They literally have teeth. Good luck with it.
                          Hi,

                          Thank you so much for your information

                          It's my first time repairing the pump organ and hopefully things go well as your kind words mentioned!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Lamar, Nico & Casey,

                            Here comes my update:

                            I just bought the two sets of bellow springs from the ebay link from former reply. The size of smaller set fits, but with less elasticity - I just tried to set both springs at one side (simply inlay both on the wooden board and fix it with some tape), not sure whether new problem coming from this, but I guess it basically works.

                            And yes as Casey pointed out, now the leather flap valve at one side is still missing and almost useless for moving air. I'm trying to buy one online and attach it - my remaining question is, should I simply attach the two ends of the flap valve by upholstery tacks, and do you think it is possible to use some kind of glue instead? (I'm afraid I will make irreversible damage and planning to try the way with minimum risk)

                            Many thanks for all useful tips and I think the pump organ will survive soon

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Tacks, use the old tack holes if you can 3/8" tacks are usually the right length.
                              The exact strength of the return springs isn't super-important, as long as those flap valves are not too tight, the more they can billow open, the easier the feeder will close.

                              Comment

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