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Thread: Allen TC-4 Project

  1. #281
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Thanks, John. I looked under the box and it's a 14 VDC relay similar to dozens of them in the TC-4. It goes to the flapper and only two of the pins are used. The connections in the junction box are straight through except for one fuse on the input. I have the motor off, and it has seen better days. I'm going to see what I can find out about it.

    John - those two base drivers I saw in the back of your shop look like the two I have in the 24" box under the gyro 100, and the several mid-ranges in the amp/traps box that sits under the smaller gyro look like the midranges in my sweet sixteen. Allen must have bought zillions of them.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000 for parts - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  2. #282
    Moderator myorgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbird604 View Post
    I wonder if there is an old organist's retirement home that we could all move to one of these days?
    I'm not sure that would work. Too many organists per organ, or too many repair techs per organ. Ever heard the lightbulb scenario?

    Michael
    Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
    • MOS-2 Model 505-B / ADC-4300-DK / ADC-5400 / ADC-6000 (Symphony) / ADC-8000DKC
    • Lowrey Heritage (DSO-1)
    • 9 Pump Organs, 1 Pipe Organ & 4 Pianos

  3. #283
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Progress, of a sort. With nothing to lose (except a fuse) I tried a Hammond self-starting capacitor that I had laying around on the Robbins & Myers 1/10 HP 1650 RPM Type KP motor from the gyro. It started and ran smoothly, except for a cyclic pulsation I could hear but not see, even with a fingertip pressed against the shaft.

    Now that I have the original capacitor off, I can see that it's a Mallory 5 MFD 265 VAC. Let's see what the ex-Hammond was... It's a 3 MFD 370 VAC.

    The capacitor I removed has a bulge on the backside with a trail of rust below it. I shall travel down to the local electric supply place (who have seen better days, pre-Lowes) and ask if they have a 5 MFD starting capacitor.

    The motor needs a good cleaning, too. I have already gotten some advice about that via PM (and thank you, sir!).

    All right... apparently the capacitor is a "run capacitor" that actually charges some of the windings to create a rotating field inside the motor. Wikipedia says:

    If a wrong capacitance value is installed, it will cause an uneven magnetic field around the rotor. This causes the rotor to hesitate at the uneven spots, resulting in irregular rotation, especially under load.

    Hmm... could that be the cyclic pulsation I'm seeing? From putting a 3 MFD in where a 5 MFD was?

    Anyway, I'm still going to get the proper capacitor for it.
    Last edited by Silken Path; 11-08-2018 at 03:45 AM.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000 for parts - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  4. #284
    Moderator jbird604's Avatar
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    Oh dear! I forgot to put those Allen woofers into your trailer. I have several of them, and wanted you to have that pair and the baffle they are mounted on. Well, they're not worth much anyway. Yes, Allen must have bought them by the hundreds, as that same woofer was used starting way back in the analog era and going up through early MOS. And in every usage the woofer was wired in series with a 14 mH choke to keep the highs out of it.

    You are surely on the right track replacing that run capacitor. The bulge is a sure sign that it needs replacing. We have to do that frequently on Hammond organ start/run caps on the models without a starting motor. I get them from various internet suppliers for the Hammond motors. They can cost anywhere from around $10 to about $30, depending on the value and where I'm buying. Makes a huge difference in the quietness and smoothness of rotation.

    BTW, the belts that Allen used from motor to the big pulleys on various gyros were made by Gates and can still be purchased as well, though I don't know the source. I ordered 3 or 4 from Allen a few years ago and still have a couple left, so I haven't needed to find an internet source.
    John
    ----------
    Church: Allen MDS-45 with Allen MIDI-DIVISION-II expander
    Home: Allen Renaissance R-230 with expanded four-channel audio and MIDI-DIVISION-II
    Shop: Bunch of organs in varying conditions, some good, some not...
    Half of an incredible two-man organ service team -- servicing all the major digitals in Arkansas churches
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birds...97551893588434

  5. #285
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Hi, John. No problem. I don't have any bass reeds on the Allen anyway (but the little Rodgers has an 8-16-32 that I've tried on the pedals).

    Thank you for the information on the run capacitor and belts! THIS run cap I have came from my E100 - Organ #3.

    I ordered a new, old motor for it a couple of years ago, and the motor came with a NEW run capacitor attached.) I simply pulled the motor, capacitor, and wiring in mass. That was from Tonewheel General. (I like them.)

    I've been reading about run capacitors and AC motor theory. Cool stuff. I read that fore/aft play is generally not critical because the stator self-locates itself somewhere near the optimal flux when running. That motor from the Hammond had rotary slop, though. It had lived its days.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000 for parts - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  6. #286
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    More progress. The $5.88 run capacitor from the local electrical shop solved the motor problem, and then adjusting the belt to just slip like a Leslie got it spinning. I let it run for thirty minutes and the motor got warm to the touch, but not hot, and the capacitor stayed cool.

    I also tripped the 14VDC relay for the hooter's flappers by hand and discovered that they work.

    There is no motor control unit on this AC gyro. Also, the relay only works for the flapper and not the gyro itself. This leads one to wonder if the gyro was activated by power from another source. There's only one male 120VAC connection in the gyro, and it is fused on one side and provides power for three outlets. And this leads me to wonder if (1) the gyro run all the time, or if (2) power was only applied to the gyro, and thus the flapper when needed, and (3) the flapper was controlled by some tremolo control on a theater organ.

    I'm pretty sure I'm going to convert the relay and speaker leads over to terminal strips to match the rest of the speakers.

    Anyway, I'll do some digging around to see what I can find out. As Duke Leo said, "Fortune passes everywhere."
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000 for parts - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  7. #287
    mf Mezzo-Forte Larrytow's Avatar
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    Lamar,

    You are really getting a collection of vintage Allen equipment there ! It is a disease that cannot be cured.

    Many years ago I had an Allen Theater Deluxe 2 manual. And it had Gyros similar to the ones you have. But it did not have any sort of "reed flapper". Even after looking at the photo you posted I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what it is, and how it exactly works.

    If you could, please give a more detailed explanation of the mechanism. This would be more for my collection of esoteric Allen trivia than anything - I doubt I will ever encounter one.
    Regards, Larry

    At Home : Yamaha Electones : EX-42 ( X 3 ! ), E-5AR ( X 2, 1 parts, 1 not ), D80 ( parts ), FX-1, FX-20, HS-7T ( parts ), EL-25 ( X 2, 1 chopped, 1 not ). Allen organs : T12-A, T-12B, ADC-6000D. Baldwin 626. Hammond Concorde. Lowrey CH32-1. A bunch of Synthesizers and Keyboards. At Churches I play for : Allen Q325 ( with VISTA ), Hammond A105, Baldwin 720T, Several small and medium size pipe organs of many sorts and builders.

  8. #288
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Hey, Larry - Thanks. I'll try to get some detail pictures, but imagine two horns facing upward, side by side, and we're looking at the wide sides. The tops of the horns, and their flare, are rectangular. On top of each of them is a long rectangular box. In each box is a driveshaft that goes through it long ways. In between the boxes is a coupler. On the right, the shaft extends a couple of inches and has a pulley. A belt from the pulley goes to a motor that is operated by a relay on the floor of the gyro. Inside the box is a long paddle that goes the length of the box, and the paddle is composed of two long "wings" that extend from slots in the driveshaft. The paddles spin when the speaker is hooting, and the flapping effect provides tremolo.

    At least that's how I think it works.

    And I think I have seen these for sale on eBay. When MarkS mentioned them way back in this thread, I was imagining something like a boat paddle that wobbled stuck in one of the huge 33" gyro boxes. Now I know that hooters have flappers, or the other way around.

    If you've seen a Vox Humana on a reed organ, that's the same theory.

    There was a similar looking gyro, but not nearly as nice as this cabinet, on eBay for $200 a few weeks ago. I couldn't tell if it had slots for the hooters on top, but that's the giveaway to the presence of the horns.

    The other gyro, the smaller one, I know came from a theater organ - it has the T-20 amp and a traps box. I'm going to get that running after I settle this one. (It has RCA inputs.) I have about three feet exposed space left in my office where the Conn and Rodgers are and need something to stick in it.

    I'm still looking for a 100 gyro that I can put on the diapasons.

    Who needs Leslies? We got GYROS!

    Here's a slightly better picture. That's the hooters and the flapper boxes, and the driveshaft is visible at top. The domed items are the tweeters. This thing zips right along.

    Last edited by Silken Path; 11-09-2018 at 12:09 AM.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000 for parts - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

  9. #289
    mp Mezzo-Piano twnelson's Avatar
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    Looks like the electronic equivalent to the motor-driven paddle trems used on Austin pipe organs for ranks installed on their Universal Air Chest.

    --- Tom
    Rodgers 660 with additional analog rack sets (practice), 36D/C in digital conversion, Yamaha CVP-107

  10. #290
    ff Fortissimo Silken Path's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twnelson View Post
    Looks like the electronic equivalent to the motor-driven paddle trems used on Austin pipe organs for ranks installed on their Universal Air Chest.

    --- Tom
    Interesting. I've heard that Allen started with pipe organ tech and construction techniques and that's a reason that so many of the early ones are still in service. That, and their being repairable.

    The tremolo reminds me of the Vox Humana air-operated fans on the reed organs.
    -- I'm Lamar - 1967 Allen TC-4 Project (forum thread)
    -- Rodgers W5000C and Hauptwerk - spare W5000 for parts - Conn 643 Theater - Hammond M3 and E-112
    -- Roland RD300nx stage piano - 1899 Kimball reed organ (forum thread)
    -- Public domain hymn search: https://songselect.ccli.com/search/r...t=publicdomain

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