Baroque Vs. Modern Pedalboard

[ContreFagott32']

I have heard that a Baroque pedalboard, with parallel, non-radiating pedals, is more difficult to play. For what reason is this?

[douçaine]

If you're playing Baroque music, a parallel non-radiating pedalboard is not significantly more difficult. The exceptions are if if you're short (because you'd have to move around on the bench to reach the ends), if the music requires heels towards the ends (same problem), or if the action is heavy (it will be pretty hard on the knees, because of the angle). Also, if you're used to a modern pedalboard, it will take a bit of adjustment--nothing one can't accomplish in a short practice session.
What would be quite difficult is playing big French music on a Cavaillé-Coll or Merklin with its original parallel non-radiating pedalboard. I've done it successfully, but the beast did a number on my knees, ankles and lower back (I'm young, so performing is no excuse for joint pain under most circumstances). Suppose one could get used to it, but it would take more than a few minutes of practice right before. Also, I'd avoid stuff with lots of double-stops or scales until familiar with the dimensions. Bach and other older music would be quite simple, on the other hand. Franck is okay in theory, but using the old swell lever (tremendously heavy) while trying to pedal legato is strenuous and unpredictable. (There are two advantages to that sort of swell lever, though. First of all, an assistant can do it for you, because the lever is all the way to the right. Second of all, if makes the beginning of the Final to Vierne 3 really fun; stamp on the low F-sharp and the swell lever at the same time, and it makes the perfect accent.)
For the most part, all the music we would play in recitals was written for flat pedalboards; it's certainly doable, and usually not terribly difficult.

[Pachinko7]

Modern pedalboard (AGO), radiating pedals, follow the natural angle of legs opening and closing while one sits at the center of the bench. Additionally the AGO pedalboard is concave, so ideally when rotating legs laterally (around knees) the feet are always relatively close to the pedalboard. So the further away the pedals one plays are from the center of the pedalboard, the more the disadvantage of the parallel pedalboard, and the more one can actually feel the difference between the two styles.

[Sathrandur]

Interestingly modern pedalboards (AGO type) had their origins in England I believe. The concave-radiating design was the idea of S.S. Wesley.

I agree with the above posts, most of our organ repertore was written for the old pedalboards. While I prefer concave-radiating, the parallel-flat type is certainly viable. What I find interesting is the debate of historically correct performance with the music of Bach. Yes I concede that heels were probable seldom used for playing with in that era, but even though the pedals are not that long compared to today's standards, I still have noticed on Baroque-era pedalboards that there should still be room to use heels if the organist wishes to.

[Fettler]

I play a 124-year old pipe organ which has a straight, concave pedalboard and a trigger swell. The pedalboard poses few problems but the lever swell is indeed unpredictable. The wooden 'stick' which hitches the lever down has on occasion ended up on the wrong side of it. Then you are left with the choice of either holding the lever down with the right foot, or effectively losing half of the organ. What fun!

Best wishes,
Fettler

[regeron]

I am told that Bach had no difficulty playing his music on a flat, non-radiating pedalboard.

In light of those who suggest that the concave-radiating pedalboard will fit the movement of the legs better, there are those who suggest that the manual keyboards be radiating as well. :)

I learned the Pepping " 'Mitten wir im Leben sind' Toccata and Fugue" on a flat, non-radiating pedalboard. In addition to other extended passages of 16th notes in the pedals, there are 3 sets of 16th-note pedal scales - 2 octaves from low D to high D. It was no problem on a flat pedalboard.

There are various "versions" of concave-radiating. Casavant used to build one version that some people find to be actually more comfortable than the AGO one.

[myorgan]

I am told that Bach had no difficulty playing his music on a flat, non-radiating pedalboard.

WOW!!! Someone spoke to you who knew Bach? To think the oldest person I know was born in the 20th century.;-). My mother knew some slaves who were freed, but that's the furtherest back I can go.

When I go to Germany later this year, I hope to see and experience some historic organs (older than 150 years). I do wonder if there was some sort of standard for straight, flat pedal boards in prior centuries.

I once played an organ (built mid 1800s) in concert, and the pedal board was straight, flat, and offset (cf. AGO) by one note to the right. It was frustrating when I started a pedal scale run on the wrong note. Fortunately, I recovered quickly, but was devastated by the public mistake. I had only one short practice with the instrument before hand.

Interesting topic. I'd still like to talk to someone who knew Bach!;-)

Michael

[Sathrandur]

I hope Michael that you will take the time to visit Weingarten Abbey while in Germany. Beautiful instrument, and I believe the most technologically advanced item on the planet before the industrial revolution. Probably the first instrument on such a scale with a detached console too.

[regeron]

regeron: "I am told that Bach had no difficulty playing his music on a flat, non-radiating pedalboard."

WOW!!! Someone spoke to you who knew Bach? To think the oldest person I know was born in the 20th century.;-). My mother knew some slaves who were freed, but that's the furtherest back I can go...

Interesting topic. I'd still like to talk to someone who knew Bach!;-)

Michael

I'm sorry if my post was misunderstood. I hadn't claimed to speak with anyone who knew Bach, but I have spoken to people who have read documents relating to him and his abilities. It is to these that I was referring. For example, the comment that "Bach could play passages with his feet, which other people had difficulty playing with their fingers." I'm sorry again, for not being able to provide the reference for this story or any others like it. Perhaps another Organ Forum contributor can help out here.

Bach aside, all you have to do is look at the pedal parts in the organ music of the North German Baroque to find incredible, virtuosic writing. Then imagine all the improvisations that never made it to paper. And it was all played on a flat, non-radiating pedalboard.

For most modern organists, the problem is not so much that it is harder somehow, just that it is unfamiliar. And unfortunately, most of us have no access to anything other than AGO standard pedalboards, so when we DO get to play something else, it is seldom and infrequent, so it also remains relatively unfamiliar which, as stated above, leads us to believe that it is harder.

It sounds like you're in for a treat when you travel to Europe. I hope that there are opportunities for you to try a variety of different historical instruments. It's always a learning experience to do that. And you will come away with so many good memories.

Regarding "standards" - standardization is relatively modern. Again, others will be able to help out here. Many of us live in enough isolation to think that we are operating by "the standard," but in reality, there are so many regional and national differences in so much of life. As an example, just consider a concept like "standard law," and the USA. You will have federal laws, for sure, but then there are state, municipal, and institutional laws that can differ from one another, sometimes quite dramatically.

Here in Canada, on the prairies, there is a city called Lloydminster, which sits on the border between the two provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. I'm not sure of the current situation, but it used to be that the two provinces had two different legal drinking ages, such that what was legal on one side of a street that ran down the border was illegal on the other side of the same street. Here in Canada, as well, before we switched to the metric system of measurements, we were on the British system, but although we had gallons, just like the USA did, they were different gallons! Today in Canada, there is still a carryover, such that we use a combination of both systems.

These are just some examples of current areas where "standardization" is a nice thought, but not quite a complete reality.

[myorgan]

I hope Michael that you will take the time to visit Weingarten Abbey while in Germany. Beautiful instrument, and I believe the most technologically advanced item on the planet before the industrial revolution. Probably the first instrument on such a scale with a detached console too.

I think I was actually there in 1995, but was so busy chaperoning high school music students, I didn't have an opportunity to catch much. There was an organ recital going on that day, and we just caught the tail end of it. I was never able to speak with the organist or view the organ from anywhere other than the aisle, where I snapped one photo on a film camera. Do you think I can find the photo now?! I wonder if the students ever knew what a personal sacrifice that was? In any event, on this trip we won't be visiting Southern Germany--just Köln area. Too bad, though!

I'm sorry if my post was misunderstood. I hadn't claimed to speak with anyone who knew Bach, but I have spoken to people who have read documents relating to him and his abilities.

I hope you realize, my comments were tongue in cheek. I was relatively certain you had reliable resources to make the statements you did. Unfortunately, from time to time other people often provide erroneous or misleading information on this Forum without proper backup. Beginning/younger organists sometimes take these statements as gospel truth without question, and are unable to parse fact vs. opinion on the topic.

For most modern organists, the problem is not so much that it is harder somehow, just that it is unfamiliar.

You addressed the crux of the matter: Unfamiliar/familiar vs. difficult/easy. Given enough practice time to acquaint one's self with an instrument, any instrument is playable. However, in the position of a substitute or visiting artist, time is often not a luxury one has readily available. For the spatially challenged person relying on finger memory, different placement of keyboards, pedals, stops, etc. can be quite a barrier.

I'm not sure of the current situation, but it used to be that the two provinces had two different legal drinking ages, such that what was legal on one side of a street that ran down the border was illegal on the other side of the same street.

I grew up 5 miles from the border and remember the Imperial gallon as well. Guys from the local Air Force Base also used to go to Quebec because there the drinking age was 16 in the strip clubs. I hope it's changed since!

Regeron, I always appreciate your contributions to the Forum. I hope you took the comment as it was intended.

Michael

[regeron]

Thanks Michael, for your words.

In fact, I had not realized the humor - that day had a lot of things happening and when I read your post, it was after dealing with a few idiots in life. So, I did mis-read it. Sorry. LOL

I realize that a lot of us fall into the category of not really understanding how life was, and that history flows in a line. The people who can't believe how you can play Bach on a flat pedalboard seem to forget that that's what he had, and he had no problem.

My issues with confused history timelines were most marked in my youth, when I couldn't figure out why Bach hadn't done an arrangement of "How great Thou art." :P It never occured to me that the hymn hadn't even been written when he was alive. Thank goodness, I've come at least a little way since then. :)

[Havoc]

The problem is thinking Bach was the norm. That's the same as thinking every physics teacher is an Einstein.

Now I rarely play on something else than flat pedalboards, radiating concave being not the norm here. Some are parallel but slightly concave. There are also some slightly radiating. But rarely both.

[Guest]

At one time I had two organs, one with a flat pedal board and one with a radiating and concave pedal board. When playing the flat pedal board, the feel was as if the pedal board was convex with the pedals at trends of the range being farther away. The concave pedal board appears to keep the pedals the same distance away. The flat pedal board is certainly useful but I find the concave pedal board more comfortable. The degree on longevity on my pedals is not as extreme as an AGO pedal board which I find my pedal board more comfortable, maybe because that is what I am used to.

[minibutmany]

The organ I take lessons on has a flat pedal board and the two I practice on are AGO. I feel like the flat pedal board gives more feedback than the AGO, and after some getting used to isn't much harder to play. It is nearly impossible to play with the heels but I think that may have to do with bench height. You also need to make sure you heels don't get stuck in between the keys!

[ArthurCambronne]

I play on a straight flat pedal board at church, but practice on an AGO concave radiating. I can go between, with about 20 minutes of practice. I actually find the straight flat pedals to be more 'present' if you know what I mean. The sharps are taller, and the notes farther apart. In some ways it seems easier. I have big feet though. . .