Worst Hammond Organ

[Guest]

Re: Worst Hammond Organ



"dec wrote the following post at 07-22-2003 4:19 AM: </P>
<DIV class=ForumReplyToPostArea>Easy question. Any model beginning with a "J". You may also place anything made after the Australian firm purchased Hammond. But, by far, the "J" series were the pits."</DIV>


<U>i disagree.</U></P>


iused to have an M3, more or less the "baby B3." a respectable, good quality organ, but having grown up on the sounds of the Doors, Strawberry Alarm Clock, Music Emporiumand the Animals, it lacked, by my definition, the "ass" it takes to aggressively cut through a mix of drums, guitar, and bass.</P>


the J-412 i found ditched in an alley, however,has mucho cajones. A combination of the flute 16', cello 16', violin 8' and oboe 8' does the "light my fire" vox sound better than a bloody VOX does. i also find the vibrato to be more lush and flexible than either the M-3 or the VOX.</P>


ive been trying to find a way to chop it B-3 style and nix the onboard solidstate amp for a while now. im just not electronically savvy enough. that would probably be my only gripe about it - that wussy little amp sucks. but the built-in leslie rotary speaker kind of makes up for it.</P>


as for durability, i moved my M3 all of once (to get it into the house) and the vibrato scanner went all wonky (see: "motorboating"), and the startup motor pin started to jam. lovely.</P>


this J-412 sat in an alley unattended in ALASKA (eg, 9 months of winter) for years.it was cracked and grey and dried out, filthy and covered in dead insects,dried up leaves, stained and brittle. i took it home, repainted it (blue!), reupholstered the grille,and all it required beyond that was a mere cleaning to start right back up and work as new, like it had never been left out in the first place. that was a year and a half ago and it has yet to break or go out of tune.</P>


so, i cant really abide by the logic that declares the J-series to be the worst. if by worst you mean "least popular," then yeah, it probably was. pitting anytransistorized organ against the immense popularity of the tonewheels is pointless - they dont really do the same things, andtonewheels will always be more popular by a landslide.</P>


but this thing has given me more smiles than any organ before it. i must sing it's praises, if no one else will. if i could find one of these brand new NOS, id nab it in a half a heartbeat.</P>

[Clavier]

Re: Worst Hammond Organ



Yeah, the J-412 and I have great memories together. I sure miss it. I did have a very combo organ kind of sound too. I wonder how many similarities it shares with the Ace Tone combo organs. It would be interesting if there was an exact replica combo version out there somewhere.
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[img]/photos/clavier/images/32028/original.aspx[/img]</p>

[Clavier]

Re: Worst Hammond Organ

My vote for the worst would be the 124C, (or whatever it's called).

[andyg]

Re: Worst Hammond Organ

[quote user="Clavier"]

I wonder how many similarities it shares with the Ace Tone combo organs. </p>

[/quote]</p>

None, basically. There's another similar thread around here somewhere (or maybe it got lost in the big move some time ago) where I outlined the history of the J. It started as the 'Everett by Hammond', with 37 key manuals, then became the 'Hammond Everett', then the J100 with 44 key manuals. )Some of its voicing went into the N series, and then, amazingly, into the Phoenix and even the Regent.)
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Ace Tone's connections with Hammond came rather later, when they produced the Piper, then Hammond rebadged existing Ace Tone models, creating the VS series and also the Ace Tone GT2 and GT5 became the X2 and X5, with the label 'Nihon Hammond'. Roland was also created out of Ace Tone, but that's another story.
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I'll be gracious and bite my tongue, as I already stated my thoughts about the J earlier in the thread.</p>

Andy
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[Guest]

Re: Worst Hammond Organ

[quote user="Clavier"]


I wonder how many similarities it shares with the Ace Tone combo organs. [/quote]</P>


Well, my primary combo at the moment is the Ace Tone TOP-5, and it has a similar tone, but the difference in tone is notable... aside from the TOP-5's limitations voice-wise, the J-412 has a little bit more bite. the Ace Tone is still pretty bitey, but something about that "oboe" 8' tab on the J... its just nuts. it givesit it's banshee-like yowl. without it, i wouldnt be near as in love with it.</P>


besides, it was free, its nuclear blue, reupholstered with bright pink/red/black/blue geometric fabric. its loud and noisy and psychedelic and i love that about it. my neighbors must hate me. even people who dont love the sound see it and go "LOOK at that thing!"</P>


if i ever meet up with a real hot-**** tech and cabinet builder, id probably just have them encase the top manual. that top manual is where it's <U>at</U>. a full 4th octave sure would be nice though...</P>

[Jerram]

I'm surprised more people haven't voted for the V series. Man, the cadette I have is pretty much like choosing which buz you want to hear. Pedal action is also very noisy as well I might add. I seem to recall they were in fact made by yamaha in Japan under license. Luckily it has stopped working and I have my T-222 to keep me happy (though I still need to fix around 7 drawbars ;))

[hammond3]

I am surprised no one mentioned a romance model. which had only one good feature which was the internal leslie.

[andyg]

There appear to be two VS series constructors. Looking at various photos, it's very clear that some were put together by Yamaha, but all that I've seen were produced by Ace Tone / Nihon Hammond as detailed above.

The later Romance series were an improvement, with the larger models like the 126 having a decent flute sound.

[jkrusel]

I'm surprised more people haven't voted for the V series. Man, the cadette I have is pretty much like choosing which buz you want to hear. Pedal action is also very noisy as well I might add. I seem to recall they were in fact made by yamaha in Japan under license. Luckily it has stopped working and I have my T-222 to keep me happy (though I still need to fix around 7 drawbars ;))

My very first exposure to a Hammond was a Cadette I picked up on the curb! I even went up to the house and asked and they said "sure, haul it off, it doesn't work"! Otherwise it was in perfect shape. This was back in the early 80s.

Took it home, got into it and long story short, got it working perfectly by replacing a single zener diode in the power supply. Cost 35 cents at Radio Smack.

I kept it for about 6 months and ended up selling it for $400. "Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end."

[Fenrirlupus]

If you want to find undesirable hammonds, simply look for a few things...

-Colorful switches/buttons/tabs
-manuals smaller than 61 keys
-no inverse color preset keys
-no tonewheel generator
-no full pedalboard
-overhang style keys rather than waterfall
-no drawbars
-100% solid state amplified

Hard to say which is the "worst" but I would tend to think nobody would want something that fits that description or is a near miss. Tonewheel spinets are already in the "less desirable" category... but take away that tonewheel sound and you've got something rather useless for a "poor man's b3"
Solid state amps in and of themselves aren't a bad thing (so long as you want a clean, undistorted sound), but their adoption occurred during the period that is generally viewed as the downfall of Hammond.

[rusto]

The worst Hammond is the one that doesn't get played. A B3/A100 sitting in grandma's living room collecting dust or the corner of someone's studio who bought it meaning to learn how to play but hasn't gotten around to it and never will. Or that friend/acquaintance who has a beat up one that he wants as much $ for it as one that's in mint condition and has all of it's electronics updated/restored. To me, that's the worst. I knew this sax collector. Made good money, was single so he could spend his money on anything he pleased. I was a repair tech in a high-end sax shop years ago. He'd come to town when we got something unusual. I swear the only thing I heard this guy play was "Georgie Girl." And at an 8th grade level at best. Dozens and dozens of sweet horns owned by a buffoon and never getting played. Aargh. :)

[andyg]

If you want to find undesirable hammonds, simply look for a few things...

-Colorful switches/buttons/tabs
-manuals smaller than 61 keys
-no inverse color preset keys
-no tonewheel generator
-no full pedalboard
-overhang style keys rather than waterfall
-no drawbars
-100% solid state amplified

Spoken like a 'B3 only' man, perhaps? ;-)

1 - Perhaps in the case of J's, N's, Romances, Phoenix, Regent etc, but the T500, R100 and the X series were colour coded and I wouldn't put them in the same category.
2 - What's so wrong with a spinet?
3 - That only applies to consoles, so spinets are obviously 'out'! :)
4 - Probably, but the larger LSI consoles had a good, gutsy sound. Not a tonewheel sound for sure, but still goo to my ears (especially with a big leslie or two in tow)
5 - See 2.
6 - Ah, the old waterfall vs diving board keys discussion. Proper organ manuals do overhang. I'm certain Hammond was just keeing the build costs down. His prototype used a piano keyboard. I can gliss and smear euqally well on either and have never yet broken a key.
7 - Yes!
8 - Hmm, I'm in two minds. I love the sound of the tube amped Hammonds, sure, but I also enjoy that crisp sound you get from a T, or the 'balls' of an X77, or the totally unique sound of the X66

Overall, your list would rule out some models that I'd consider desirable. T400, X66, Elegante. Chacun a son gout et vive la difference!:->

[indianajo]

2 - What's so wrong with a spinet?
3 - That only applies to consoles, so spinets are obviously 'out'! :)
5 - See 2.
6 - Ah, the old waterfall vs diving board keys discussion. Proper organ manuals do overhang. I'm certain Hammond was just keeing the build costs down. His prototype used a piano keyboard. I can gliss and smear equally well on either and have never yet broken a key.
7 - Yes!
8 - Hmm, I'm in two minds. I love the sound of the tube amped Hammonds, sure, but I also enjoy that crisp sound you get from a T, or the 'balls' of an X77, or the totally unique sound of the X66

:->

I'm glad to see someone else not afraid of diving board keys. I'm starting to gliss more, the hammond doesn't hurt as much as the piano, even with the "wrong' keys.
Spinnets vs consoles - well, Booker T. played a spinet on Green Onions, as allegedly did ELO, and I never saw anybody playing Ed Sullivan's famous B use the pedals as anything but a foot rest - but I passed up spinet models of all brands for 26 years because my first organ piece takes an octave and a fifth. I'll get to Booker T eventually, but I have 360 years of music mostly with pedals to work through first.
As far as the color issue, I've waded through the schematics of an Aurora for a member with a screechy one, and it is shocking how Hammond mixed three logic families with strange glues of discrete transistors and passive components to shift the levels. 3 or 4 different power supplies. A retired Cmos designer on diyaudio opined that when you did that, you should clamp all cmos inputs to the power supply with schottky diodes. On some clock inputs Hammond did, on the data lines they didn't. So does anybody else think that might be why they blow up so much?
Tubes vs transistors;j if you're not overdriving the tube for 2nd harmonic distortion (like some leslie users do) then they can both be done well. If you just need more volume, don't overdrive a transistor amp, instead hook it up to a PA amp (usually transistor). The previous owner of my H100 used the transistor amped PR10 tone cabinet extensively, apparently since the switch to the internal tube amp was never soldered in 30 years of service and 4 service calls. That design is hilarious by today's standards. It has interstage transformers, slow non-epitaxial PNP power transistors, primitive biasing arrangements which probably didn't keep the output transistors switched on all the time. I've haven't recapped it yet, and probably won't.
I'm converting my scratchy tube socket H-100 to transistors, we'll see what the difference is. Stay tuned.

[jdoc]

Spinet bashing?:'( never owned a console but have played them. :-(Too many other worsts for knocking spinets. The Spinet and the S6 took the Hammond to the masses. They fit in small spaces. Isn't there some little creature called a Piper to bash around? My LSI is slowly dieing but it has a pretty nice Leslie for after the autopsy.:->

[Fenrirlupus]

Spoken like a 'B3 only' man, perhaps? ;-)

1 - Perhaps in the case of J's, N's, Romances, Phoenix, Regent etc, but the T500, R100 and the X series were colour coded and I wouldn't put them in the same category.
2 - What's so wrong with a spinet?
3 - That only applies to consoles, so spinets are obviously 'out'! :)
4 - Probably, but the larger LSI consoles had a good, gutsy sound. Not a tonewheel sound for sure, but still goo to my ears (especially with a big leslie or two in tow)
5 - See 2.
6 - Ah, the old waterfall vs diving board keys discussion. Proper organ manuals do overhang. I'm certain Hammond was just keeing the build costs down. His prototype used a piano keyboard. I can gliss and smear euqally well on either and have never yet broken a key.
7 - Yes!
8 - Hmm, I'm in two minds. I love the sound of the tube amped Hammonds, sure, but I also enjoy that crisp sound you get from a T, or the 'balls' of an X77, or the totally unique sound of the X66

Overall, your list would rule out some models that I'd consider desirable. T400, X66, Elegante. Chacun a son gout et vive la difference!:->

Perhaps you misunderstand-- something with ALL or MOST of those things, not just some. Nothing's wrong with spinets, I love 'em. I don't mind diving board keys either. (It's just that spinets and diving board keys are less desirable, not completely undesirable.) Essentially, what I mean to say that the least desirable hammond would be a little spinet with no drawbars or tonewheel generator and stubby little plastic pedals. That's not even saying such an instrument would be undesirable.

Oh, and about #6... I can do glissandos fine with diving board keys, it's just a preference thing... and yes, the waterfall keys were created just to keep costs down.