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  • M100 Run Motor Works, but Still has Issues

    Hey helpful forum folks!

    I've been trying to revive an M100 since I picked it up from a church yard sale last fall. I was keeping regular updates at this thread, but it seems to have not made the jump from the old platform to the new. :(

    Took a break over Christmas, but I'm back at it and I've hit another roadblock.Here's where I am so far:
    1. The TWG assembly is well oiled and spins up to speed if I disconnect the two springs joining the start and run motor flywheels. If I connect the springs and try to hold the start switch, the resistance from the run motor prevents the start motor from spinning up even a quarter turn.
    2. The run motor is receiving power; if I just turn the run switch on and try to turn the run motor flywheel by hand, I'm met with LOTS of resistance. If I push through it will jump forward a quarter turn and then stop me again.
    3. I recently discovered that the oiling wick running out of the tin cup to the run motor had broken. I fished out the two pieces of wick and have been oiling the run motor bearing (between the box and flywheel) directly and spinning by hand (power off, of course). This has not seemed to loosen it up much, if at all.
    Am I overlooking some other common run motor problem? I don't think its time for a replacement, but I'm at a loss. Do I just keep oiling and oiling that bearing? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks!

  • #2
    Bypass the starter load resistor?It's under the protective metal plate on the
    AC cable end of the tone generator.I use an alligator clip to test.Place it across the resistor ends......
    Once you determine it will start with this bypass? Always remember to turn off the start switch if the spring is broken!
    This is how I 'fixed' my M3!
    Worth a try......the resistor should pull RPM on 'start' down to proper speed.These increase in value over time......
    it might be too much resistance to start!
    A100/251 A100/147 A102/222 B2/142 BV/147 BCV/145 M3/145 M102/145 M111/770 L101/760 T222/HL722 M111/770 no B3/C3!

    Comment


    • #3
      If the run motor has resistance you may have a stuck bearing. Will the shaft move in and out easily? If not, pushing it in and out may free up the stuck bearing. Turning it won't.

      The other run motor problem is the loss of one of the field coils. You can measure the coil resistance. Individually they have around 180 ohms and in parallel 90 ohms.

      geo

      Comment


      • #4
        Your description sounds more mechanical than electrical. You must free up the motor not by spinning it but by oiling it, and some axial (in/out) movement of the shaft. Spinning it while stuck will cause the bearing sleeve to spin. The threads are wrapped around the bearing sleeve, and if it is spun, the thread spins with it, and the thread could break off.

        You may yet have electrical issues but it's hard to diagnose those before first the run motor is freed up.

        Comment


        • #5
          The scanner could also be the culprit. Remove the run motor and disconnect the scanner.

          Jim

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by geoelectro View Post
            If the run motor has resistance you may have a stuck bearing. Will the shaft move in and out easily? If not, pushing it in and out may free up the stuck bearing. Turning it won't.
            Not home at the moment but the shaft does move in and out a very small amount. You can see here in one of the first troubleshooting videos I posted back in November (ignore all the parts about the TWG not spinning, that part works now!). I'd guess it moves a few millimeters back and forth.

            The other run motor problem is the loss of one of the field coils. You can measure the coil resistance. Individually they have around 180 ohms and in parallel 90 ohms.

            geo
            I'll meter this out tonight.

            Thanks for the input y'all. I'll report back soon.

            Comment


            • #7
              if your run motor does 90 degrees steps when turning it by hand you have a 230v run motor. then the resistance measurement should give approx 550 ohms.
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Restored my Hammond C2 (Ser. 37447, 1950, original 230V/50Hz model, rev. B AO-10 Preamp and ElectroTone PER200 Percussion, this organ was made and exported to Switzerland in 1950. Also restored and using: Leslie 760, Leslie 122, 2 Hammond PR40, 2 Hammond L100.
              Hammond M3 (Ser. 58280).
              www.hammond-restauration.ch

              Comment


              • #8
                Okay so I finally got the time to sit down and unsolder the leads of the run motor and metered them! The results look pretty standard.
                Red to Black: 180.9ohm
                Black to Red: 181.0ohm
                Tied together: 90.6ohm

                Bypassing the 250ohm brown resistor with a test lead had no effect. When I metered it during the start sequence it did pull 250ohm as expected.

                So looks like the run motor is electrically working fine, so on to more mechanical troubleshooting. I'm going to reference one of the very helpful pictures on geo's site here...

                I've tried oiling the run motor bearing (circled in blue) directly, to no avail.
                The shaft moves in and out along the axial just as much as there is space where the run motor shaft couples with the TWG shaft (boxed in yellow). It moves quite smoothly. Is it supposed to be able to move back and forth more than that?

                I haven't taken off the scanner yet, as I'd like to rule out anything else before taking on that...

                My Hammond is a 120v organ (see serial plate below). I can't imagine the run motor was ever replaced and if it were surely it would've been replaced by someone with enough sense to not get a 230v motor. When I said "it jumps a quarter turn" that was an estimation and it's not a full 90* turn.

                Any ideas? Thanks so much for getting me this far everyone!
                Attached Files

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just thinking out loud here but like Jim says, it could be the scanner. I *think* the scanner has a slip clutch arrangement between the motor and the rotating scanner arm. If the scanner bearings are sticky *and* the slip clutch is sticky, it could be putting too much drag on the motor for it to run. I think the intention is that if the scanner arm is stuck the slip clutch should to allow everything else to still run normally. When I got my E100 the scanner was stuck but everything else still ran. A gentle nudge and some oil freed up the scanner. Side note, that CRC "QD" spray is wicked effective freeing up gummy stuff.
                  Tom in Tulsa

                  Fooling with: 1969 E100, 1955 M3, 1963 M100, Leslie 720

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jacobchapman View Post
                    Hey helpful forum folks!

                    I've been trying to revive an M100 since I picked it up from a church yard sale last fall. I was keeping regular updates at this thread, but it seems to have not made the jump from the old platform to the new. :(

                    Took a break over Christmas, but I'm back at it and I've hit another roadblock.Here's where I am so far:
                    1. The TWG assembly is well oiled and spins up to speed if I disconnect the two springs joining the start and run motor flywheels. If I connect the springs and try to hold the start switch, the resistance from the run motor prevents the start motor from spinning up even a quarter turn.
                    2. The run motor is receiving power; if I just turn the run switch on and try to turn the run motor flywheel by hand, I'm met with LOTS of resistance. If I push through it will jump forward a quarter turn and then stop me again.
                    3. I recently discovered that the oiling wick running out of the tin cup to the run motor had broken. I fished out the two pieces of wick and have been oiling the run motor bearing (between the box and flywheel) directly and spinning by hand (power off, of course). This has not seemed to loosen it up much, if at all.
                    Am I overlooking some other common run motor problem? I don't think its time for a replacement, but I'm at a loss. Do I just keep oiling and oiling that bearing? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

                    Thanks!
                    Ok, your jump was 60 degrees then. Check some simple things: Are the Start and Run switches ok?. If the run motor is already under power during the start sequence, then of course the start motor can not accelerate the twg.

                    If that's ok, I would address the scanner.

                    Christian
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Restored my Hammond C2 (Ser. 37447, 1950, original 230V/50Hz model, rev. B AO-10 Preamp and ElectroTone PER200 Percussion, this organ was made and exported to Switzerland in 1950. Also restored and using: Leslie 760, Leslie 122, 2 Hammond PR40, 2 Hammond L100.
                    Hammond M3 (Ser. 58280).
                    www.hammond-restauration.ch

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by freiburg View Post

                      Check some simple things: Are the Start and Run switches ok?. If the run motor is already under power during the start sequence, then of course the start motor can not accelerate the twg.

                      Christian
                      The switches seem to be functioning as they should. Holding the start switch up engages the start motor. With the flywheel springs disconnected, I can spin the run motor flywheel by hand while the TWG spins. Once I flip the run motor switch (keeping the start switch held) the lightbulb behind the switch turns on and the tubes light up and the run motor holds the flywheel.

                      Do I need to do any other testing or can I safely assume the switches are good?

                      I've removed the scanner and things still seem to be in a jam. Here's a video update of how things are looking so far.
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa1IoK_Vxmg

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Even with the flywheel disconnected, your generator doesn't appear to spin anywhere near fast enough. Also, when you release the start switch it slows to a halt in some 4-5 seconds which also indicates that your generator is dry and sluggish - it should take at least 15-18 seconds for a US (60 Hz) generator to spin down. I think all you need is proper lubrication.
                        Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
                        Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Oh, and furthermore: In the beginning of the clip when you rotate the flywheel, I can see the little spring (at the coupling between motor and generator) bending and flexing as it's struggling to turn over the generator. This is also not normal - when the generator is properly lubricated and free, the spring shouldn't bend at all (or bend _very_ little, hardly noticeable) while being rotated by hand.
                          Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
                          Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Oh wow. More oil it is, then. This is after two naphtha flushes!

                            I'll add another 10mL to each cup and check in on it in a few days .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              10 milliliters isn't a whole lot. Fill each funnel quickly up to the brim, then wait for the oil to drain away. Repeat 4-5 times per funnel.
                              Current organs: AV, M-3, A-100
                              Current Leslies: 22H, 122, 770

                              Comment

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