Options for first organ-Help!

[Nickvency]

I'm torn on my options below. I'm new to the organ but have scoured this forum for information on all of the below models. I just want to start playing with hopefully some room to grow and learn about modding as well. Having a built in speaker is a plus, unless purchase comes with a Leslie. Possible gigging opportunities in the future but not a need. Budget is $400.
I know the T-series has great ability to be modded! I don't know how to solder but willing to learn.
However, I love the M3 sound and it was played on many classic rock albums. M-series are also more portable so I'm told, whereas a CV is a full organ with full pedal board. I'm thinking the free M111 is a great option but I would like your input!
My plan is, the option that I decide on, I will drive to the location and test out (some are a far drive) and either like it and suggest an offer, or deem it in poor condition and leave.

-M111 with stand for free! 170 watts. Tubes and drawbars cleaned in 2019.
-CV organ with Trek II, with pedals no bench. Roll or Kari dolly too. Price is negotiable...likely their asking several hundred.
-1960's M3 with built-in dolly and 2 line outs asking several hundred.
-Late 50's M3 asking several hundred.
-T-222-2 with rhythm-II. but $2000 :( which seems really high to me! I heard you can get these for next to nothing.

Thank you so much for your opinion. Really excited on starting this journey.

[Austin Otto]

I would go for the CV, personally. It has the all sounds that you sounds you would have to mod the spinets to get and it has the dolly. The only downside seems to be the size (which you would need for the 61 note keyboards anyways). Also, however, you would need to add a speaker for sound....

[David Anderson]

Just a reality check: Unless the organ you're buying has already been electronically restored or if you are genuinely good at this kind of work (just knowing how to solder and follow instructions because you once built something from a kit is not what I mean), you are going to have to pay someone several hundred dollars to put the organ back into good working order or teach yourself over an extended period.

In that light, the fact that the CV has a Trek II preamp might get you off the hook, but it has no internal speakers.

An M111 draws 170 Watts from the wall. Its audio output is more like 15 Watts.

And be aware that organ sellers have been known to lie, so if you can't verify what they say, caveat emptor. I have a couple of friends who bought B3/122 rigs from a guy who claimed they were in perfect working order. They were basket cases, and he took advantage of their excitement at getting their first real B3. With other sellers, they simply don't know anything and are just going by what they may have been told.

[joecool240]

Maybe I missed it, but it's not clear whether the CV organ has a "TREK II" solid state preamp, or percussion unit (or both).

[Nickvency]

The seller wrote: "CV has Trek II added on percussion."

[David Anderson]

Oh, I thought you meant that the CV had the Trek II full preamp. If not, cancel that part of my remarks. All CV preamps need to be rebuilt at this point if it hasn't been done.

[Origano]

t222 for $2000 is way to much. When they talk about modifying they usually mean bring it to the sound of the earlier models such as the M3.

[Sweet Pete]

The newest M3 is pushing 60.Manufactured by 'order' until '64.This free T212 is 50 this year.Made in Canada.Never paid more than a hundred for an M3.The M102 was 300 back in '93.
Two free L100's and M111/M101 later, have enjoyed the merits of all.Special consideration to M3,which is as close as there is to a B3 in sound and feel.The early vibrato scanners like a V model have an extra shimmer to them,more inductors than later vibrato lines.Makes a huge chorus the M3 won't have.The M100 chorus/vibrato is astounding! Best of the spinets by a long shot.The 'in between' setting of tabs on 'celeste' sounds like a Leslie tremelo! Diving board keys are not like an M3 though,as playable. They won't 'swipe' the same or 'squabble'.

Long and short of it the M3 gets you closest to the classic vintage sound and feel when refurbished and working right.Everything needed to sound like the B3 minus 17 or so lower keys.
I test Leslie speaker 15" with M3 bass pedals.They go as deep as a B3 down to low C.And they have 'legato' sustain,which a B3 lacks.Mine are still working fine,good little 'sticks'!

People moved to the suburbs in the mid 1990's.Free spinets you could fill a container with.Now those are being given away mostly.Anyone who thinks they can get 300+ dollars for a spinet
either has a rebuilt M3 and is being honest with the price,or thinks they are worth that unrestored.Go for the free one and take your time learning to get it running.M3 is the simplest of the bunch.Free M111 is the sleeper here!

[Nickvency]

Thanks for the response! I've heard the Celeste feature is pretty unique. I'm not sure what the “squabble” is when playing organ, but I hope the diving board keys wont be too detrimental to my learning how to swipe and squabble once I get there.
I think the pro with getting the M-111 spinet is that I don't have a ton of room so it'll fit more easily. I am young and live at home, so I can always buy a larger console once I have my own place. And the M111 is free! Just hope it doesn't have much issues.

[Sweet Pete]

I like mahogany!

[LMF]

The M3 is a great starter Hammond and the closest to a console in most ways. Don't pay more than about $300 unless it has been fully serviced and has a Leslie connector. Not a huge drawback but the pedal board lacks the high C found on other spinets and the lower manual only has eight drawbars. The pedals do have a foot operated sustain feature which is unique to the M3. M3s can sometimes found modified with octave drop on the lower manual and foldback on the upper keyboard which might be worth paying extra for. If you find an M3 with a factory finished wood back that might be worth worth paying more for if the seller is even aware that it is a rarity.

M100 models, primarily the M102 cabinet style were heavily used by many British bands before they could afford console Hammonds. Yes, Pink Floyd, Small Faces, Ten Years After, Led Zeppelin, Steve Winwood, Procol Harum, The Animals, and many others. The M100 has a second amp dedicated to Reverb which goes through its own speaker for a spatial effect. The Celeste Vibrato is especially nice and not found on most other Hammonds. Some M100s were sold with an optional finished wood factory back. I had one of those and it also had a tone cabinet connector.

The L100 is not bad as a starter organ especially if you can get one for close to free. The later editions have the photo-optical expression pedal which is less prone to noisy pot problems. Keith Emerson was famous for abusing an L102. The L100 has the deepest reverb I have heard on any Hammond and Emerson was able to make it feed back as part of his act. It also has the self-starting motor which Emerson used for off-speed effects. Tony Banks used an L122 early in Genesis. I find the L122 cabinet style the most attractive of those that were available. It is also a later model with all the best features of the L100 series. The L100 series has an EL84 tube/valve amp much like many classic guitar amps.

A sleeper Hammond console is the E100/E200/E300 series. These can be found for free to a few hundred dollars. As with the T series they do require some modification to get closer to the classic Hammond sound. Unlike the T models the E is all tube/valve. The bass pedal notes are monophonic and generated electronically rather than by tone wheels if that is of any importance.

[Nickvency]

Thanks for the reply!! What's the main differences and pro/cons to the E series and other tubes to the T series (solid state)? Are tube/valve organs more reliable? More expensive to fix or find replacement parts? I did find a few E series organs but not sure what I'll be missing out on if I get an E series versus an M pr L series. The M111 in question is free, which is a pro, whereas some L series are $50-$150.

[gtc]

1960's M3 with built-in dolly and 2 line outs asking several hundred.

Does that mean that someone has put a frame under the M3 with castors on it? On the other hand, if dolly means a genuine roll-or-kari then factor in the new price of one of those is between $600 and $700 -- depending where you buy.

[Nickvency]

Yup! But it doesn't look like a RoK.

[kzinkmusic]

I think your playing style has to come into play here. If you are looking for the Hammond sound but don't play much left hand bass lines the spinet organs will do just fine. If you are a player who wants the organ to be stand alone full sound, use left hand bass figures, real pedalboard work and; of course high end foldback, a fuller higher end sound that spinets can't ever get, you want a full console organ like the CV

[Nickvency]

I think your playing style has to come into play here. If you are looking for the Hammond sound but don't play much left hand bass lines the spinet organs will do just fine. If you are a player who wants the organ to be stand alone full sound, use left hand bass figures, real pedalboard work and; of course high end foldback, a fuller higher end sound that spinets can't ever get, you want a full console organ like the CV

thanks for the reply! I also think space and graduation comes into play. As in, I don't have a lot of room to store it in the house. I also am young and still living at home. So if I do fall in love with the organ…I can always “graduate” and buy a full console when I move into my own house. I would like to learn full pedalboard work and left hand figures, but I think a spinet will serve me fine for now. As long as the spinet doesn't sacrifice too much!! What do you think?

[KeithB]

I'd agree a spinet is a good way to get started. If reverb is important to you then the M100 series is a good option. You can add reverb to an M3, but takes a bit of ingenuity. I lucked out and found a Gibbs (Hammond) reverb amp that I connect to my M3. It also allows me to place the reverb speaker where I want it. I've found it gives the organ a much fuller sound than using just the single built-in speaker of the M3. It's likely the CV will need a lot of maintenance to work as it should. You might spend more time fixing than playing, plus needing a speaker and bench.

My advice is to be patient. If you have to have one now, I'd check out the M3s, see their actual working condition, make an offer if it's what you want. Be aware the additional reverb speaker and amp in the M111 makes it heavier than an M3 (can't remember how much, but not insignificant.) Not sure what you mean by "build in stand" for the M111. That could be a plus or negative. I've had two M3s. I transported both in the back of my Subaru Outback, so they really are not that bad to move. I think you'll know if you are drawn to the organ. For me, the M100 series doesn't appeal much - diving board keys and cabinet designs that I just don't care for. The M3 design is classic in my book.

[Sweet Pete]

Free M111 is the best deal.You are a beginner.Path of least resistance is the thing.Obvious choice if money is the issue.
If money in not an issue,offer 100 for the M3,seller will most likely reply yes.....
Always going for the upper C bass pedal when I forget I am playing an M3! M100/L100 have the 13th pedal,one can get used to that feature!
The legato control for the M100 is a tab,not located as a 'sidekick' off the expression pedal like an M3.
M100 has beautiful chorus/vibrato,much deeper and richer than an M3.The best spinet FX are found on the M100.

A complete M3 will have a metal bolt and clasp to secure the music rack.Usually missing.
Any M model will have 4 generator tie down bolts,again, usually missing at least one.A few more issues,usually reverb,to sort out on an M100 than an M3.
Secure any tone generator before moving.The bolts just reverse the standoffs to 'float' the generator,and they become loose over time and fall into the cabinet.
Any organ 50+ years old needs a new AC cable.

[kzinkmusic]

Every organist has their own preferences and as you develop your playing your wants and needs will change. As a beginner a spinet will do fine to start learning on until you catch the Hammond bug and want more. Not much of a sacrifice but eventually every good organist will always want a full console organ. I service an old M-100 at a studio, that I love and sounds great, where the producer stated he preferred the Roland clonewheel VK-8 B-3 sound to the real spinet Hammond organ. Both were played thru the same 122 Leslie. I think both have their uses.