Dedication Concert Sunday, Oct 16, 2019

[Vebo]

Marietta GA, this Sunday, Oct 16, 2019 6PM (Eastern). I think it's Johnson Ferry Baptist Church (address in image here for accessibility purposes: 955 Johnson Ferry Road, Marietta, GA) I live in Alabama, so I'm going to this event. I think it will be interesting. It was posted in the Allen Organ Owner's Facebook Group, and I can't find the post now (maybe removed because wasn't an Allen Organ?). It's an organ from Walker Technical Company, which I gather they install hybrids (pipe and digital/electronic/speaker combos)?

I believe the original post listed 6 artists, and a mix of classical/liturgical and theater music.

Anyone else going?

(If this is in wrong forum, feel free to move without comment!)

[Vebo]

Oops, should have posted in events, was going to delete & repost, but don't see ability to delete...sorry admins!

[Admin]

I've added these instructions to the Forum's FAQ for future reference.
https://organforum.com/forums/forum/...o-the-calendar

[myorgan]

Thanks for letting us know about it, Vebo! I am very curious to hear your review.

Michael

[Jay999]

It will probably be a major event, and the church has a large congregation. If you want a good seat, arrive about a half hour early. To my knowledge, this is the first big Walker organ to be installed in the Atlanta area. The 30 something year old Allen was one of the biggest Allens that company had built at the time.

[Vebo]

I'm planning on arriving 45 mins early. And after reading on these forums, I'm aware of interest in disposition of the previous Allen electronic installation and the undercurrent of pipes vs. electronics debate (I'm on the pipes are best, but don't be snobbish, not always practical in home, in churches, just keep the ability to play alive! I can't own pipes right now, but can own electronic and it makes me happy!) So I'm super interested in this hybrid instrument that included (Heaven forbid in a church) traps and sound effects, as I understand the description of the organ.

[Vebo]

Update: was not a hybrid installation, was totally digital, see my review below.

[Organkeys Jones]

Vebo - The Walker at Johnson Ferry is not a hybrid, is it? I think of a hybrid organ as pipes and digital, and it's my understanding that this one is all digital like the previous Allen.

[Vebo]

Right, it was a total digital installation. I made inaccurate assumptions based on Walker's website. Still, was very informative to hear a totally digital installation that supposedly was “state of the art.” The state of the art needs work on spatial movement, IMO.

[Vebo]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/5932...485423?sfns=mo

[Vebo]

I just got in from the concert. I enjoyed it as much for entertainment as well as my edification of “state of the art” digital organs. I'm glad I went. A few observations:

First, let me say I'm not a seasoned organist (more a motivated wanna be) and only have middling experience as an audience member for major organ performances. Regarding the performance, I'm the type that hopes for non-stop make-that-thing-pop socks-blown-off program - I give Metzger a 90% on that. I wasn't wild about his opening Bach selection, there are bigger, cleaner, more impressive pieces, and while what he played (BWV 572) was excellent, I would have enjoyed hearing something else, but I do acknowledge some of my favorites may be considered a bit hackneyed. The Amazing Grace variations contained several variations clearly in the theater style (and sound? I'm pretty sure I heard some Tibias with theater tremelo in there!) And there was an obviously planned encore of the only truly theater organ piece, The Liberty Bell March (Sousa) and it was highly entertaining and obvious there was a nod to at least some theater organ capabilities in the instrument.

The sound of the instrument: First, let me say the acoustics of the room can be a factor, as well as placement of the sound source, so they may have done the best they could given the space. While the instrument sounded wonderful, to me it was clearly not a pipe organ, it didn't have the “presence” or transparency (I think subject of another post). This was especially true in 8' and up voices - just sounded a bit dull. Also, anything 8' and above sounded static in physical space, the notes didn't dance by those barely perceptible moves as the source moves by inches with every note. Yes, there were sections of the organ distinctly coming from this chamber or that one, but the sound from within that chamber was spatially static. Now, that having been said, I'm not a pipe snob that objects to digital instruments. I applaud digital instruments for their affordability and therefore allowing more access to large instruments on a budget. But, IMO, we should never lose the respect that actual pipes deserve in this sort of setting.

I enjoyed the concert, and encourage you to check it out if it's available online (it was streamed live).

[AllenAnalog]

Thanks for the firsthand report. Part of me was hoping you would post about a "blow your socks off" experience so this is a bit disappointing. One would think if any company could eclipse the sound of the Allen it would be Walker.

I never could find a link for the live stream, despite searching for one. Perhaps you needed to be a Facebook member to see it - there was no obvious (to me) link on the church web site.

[Vebo]

Imo, Allen was not surpassed, just replaced.

[myorgan]

Vebo,

Thank you for your candid assessment of the recital. I, too, was unable to find a link. I look forward to hearing other reviews of the same concert. That said, it makes me wonder if the sound is different depending on where you sit?

Thanks again for the assessment.

Michael

[voet]

Thank you for your review of yesterday's dedication concert.

Regarding your reaction to the sound of the organ, A dedication concert may not provide the most favorable impression of an organ. On more than one occasion I have been underwhelmed by an instrument during a dedication recital that in other circumstances sounded wonderful. If the church is full, people will be absorbing sound. They tend to "soak up" the higher frequencies. This is also often true at a packed Easter or Christmas service. Of course, instruments are usually voiced in empty rooms, so the people who installed it, may not have adequately anticipated this effect.

[Vebo]

I got there early enough that while the audience was starting to assemble, I could basically sit anywhere in the space. I chose a location just far enough in front of the balcony that if any sound source had been placed at the back, it would have had room to flow down to where I was (there was none to my ear). Turns out I must have had the right idea in where I sat though, because on the same row were three of the technicians that installed the organ! I'm not sure that there were more people there than would usually be there, it was an evening service in a VERY large Baptist Church, I'd say it was maybe at 70% capacity, probably similar or less than a typical Sunday morning. But you're right, they probably have not had the opportunity to hear it with the room filled with people. It was a very live room though, all marble floors, and minimal padding in the pews. Perhaps the technicians also heard a similar deficiency and may refine the voicing? I don't mean to sound like an expert, I'm sure they know what they are doing - my commentary was just as I perceived it.

[beel m]

Voet, I hear you, but I wouldn't give installers of high-end electronic organs a "free pass" as it were, for not anticipating the sound in the worship room with worshipers, when voicing in an empty room. Pipe organ tonal finishers have done so since "year 1" and they have much less room for adjustments than the digital organ voicers, no?

[Vebo]

I predict the next evolution in digital organs will be use of stereophonic technology to bring the missing spatial reality that the current state-of-the-art lacks. I just wonder if/when the demand for it (and associated costs) will prompt manufacturers to incorporate it. But I feel it is surely inevitable.

[Admin]

Rodgers started using stereo samples well over a decade ago and most Hauptwerk sample sets are stereo with an increasing number of them in surround sound.

[Vebo]

I wonder if those are just typical stereo fake ethereal surround mixing, or if there's actual spatial location of individual pitches? If the later, that is great to know - and leaves me wondering why they aren't all done that way now...?

[Admin]

Not sure what you mean by "stereo fake ethereal surround mixing." Perhaps you're referring to mono samples that are panned into position perhaps with a little delay or digital processing added for sweetening? If so, then, for Hauptwerk at least, the answer is typically no they're not. They're typically discreet stereo samples for the front and rear that are captured by mics in different positions. Of course, it is also possible to synthesize stereo or surround with digital signal processing, but most of the surround Hauptwerk samples I'm familiar with are recorded with multiple mics.

The larger Hauptwerk surround instruments have requirements of upwards toward 64 GB of RAM, so cost is one factor for a commercial builder as is how the samples were originally recorded.

But a more practical consideration is the additional cost of speakers and amplifiers, the space required for them, and the need of suitable locations to place the speakers to create the sound field.

[jbird604]

Thanks so much for the report! I only wish I lived close enough to have been there. No doubt what you heard is pretty close to the best of digital technology today. Of course Allen and other companies have top notch technologies and can do excellent work as well. Buyers surely choose one company over the others for a variety of reasons, including how their personalities mesh with the folks they deal with in each company. You certainly can't fault Walker on their technology or on their installation skills.

Interesting that you noticed the lack of that special something ("transparency") that we can't fully quantify or define. As to movement of the sound, Rodgers of course has had "stereo imaging" since about 1990, and many organ builders use a C-C# division scheme to keep the point source from seeming static, or use some variety of "windchest layout" panning to give some kind of virtual placement of the tone sources between two speakers. But none of these plans will always solve the problem as you heard it -- the sound seems to come from too narrow a field.

To be honest, I have heard a number of superb electronic organs that I genuinely assumed to be pipe organs until I found out differently. (I was famously fooled one time by a plain old Hammond C model in a very lively church, but that was 40 years ago!) But I went to check out a huge Rodgers install in Tulsa a few years ago which had some pipes in the mix. I simply could not discern which ranks were "real" and which were digital. But the church was quite large and lively, so it would've been nearly impossible to localize the sound sources. There is also here locally a nice Ruffatti/Walker pipe/digital hybrid, and I can't ever be sure whether a given stop is real or digital whether I'm playing it or just listening.

Without a doubt, the ideal type of space in which to hear an organ is a fairly large and reverberant room. Having heard the organs in several of England's great cathedrals, I have to say that we have few churches in this country that come close to giving an organ its voice the way those churches do. A church can in fact be too big and lively -- I was honestly disappointed when I attended a service at St. Paul's in London because the sustain is so long and pervasive that it is hard to sing with the organ. And an organ can be too spread out, as the organ at our National Cathedral in Washington DC comes close to being. My favorite right now happens to be in a smaller English cathedral -- "Southwark", the "other" cathedral in London that we hear so little about. That church is just right in size and live-ness for good singing, and the organ is lovely. But I hardly ever hear one in the US that comes close to it.

So Johnson Ferry, big as it is, and with the mostly traditional look and design, still probably doesn't sweeten the sound to the same extent that it would if the acoustic situation were fully organ friendly. And I know that we have to balance organ-friendliness with "preacher-friendliness" and that sometimes people are much more concerned about making the spoken word intelligible than about making music fully glorious. So be it.

Anyway, there is always more to learn, and perhaps we will see better and better digital installations in the future. Thanks again for the first-hand report on this significant instrument.

[Vebo]

>>>Not sure what you mean by "stereo fake ethereal surround mixing."

I just meant that weird, illogical, ethereal "surround" sound you get on, for instance, a home theater sound bar etc. when you switch on surround mode and there are no rear speakers for true surround. I was hoping that was not what you meant - but I see now that it wasn't! =)

>>>Of course, it is also possible to synthesize stereo or surround with digital signal processing
Like that.

But my question has been answered - yes there is spatial voicing/sampling, at least in some/most Hauptwerk. Ram isn't a huge cost factor these days, especially when you're looking at a major installation like the Johnson Ferry organ. I can see where more amps and more speakers would be more cost, but that to me is like selling me a mono radio and telling me the stereo one is just too expensive.

[myorgan]

Vebo,

If you wish to quote someone, simply click on the word, "Quote" under the post. It makes it easier to delineate between what you have quoted vs. posted.

Michael

[Vebo]

Sorry Micheal, I find the quote system inadequate for selective quotes, so I revert back to my computer geek self of the late 80's

[jbird604]

While Rodgers began touting "stereo sampling" as the wave of the future in the early 90's, everyone hasn't jumped on the bandwagon. As you might guess, it's because not everyone is convinced that the stereo sampling and playback process is better than other methods. Now Hauptwerk samples are mostly created stereophonically, and when you listen to a Hauptwerk organ with headphones or with properly placed speakers you get a thrilling re-creation of the original placement of the pipes on the chest and in the church. And some other builders (such as M&O) use similar stereo placement schemes. But some prefer to do it differently.

Allen has been using the C-C# two-channel method since the late 90's, and they believe this is a better idea, as do many other builders. Some builders (including Allen on high-end models) will distribute a single stop over four or more channels, the notes of the chromatic scale being parceled out to different speakers, in a carefully crafted manner, so that each note has a distinct location and to minimize distortion on chords. Other companies use a "virtual chest" system that simply pans different notes of the rank from left to right or in particular patterns.

It's possible that the shortcomings of the Walker at JFBC are more due to the chambers than to any technological limits. Looking at pics online of Johnson Ferry, it appears that there are the typical up-front boxes with openings on the front only, much as you might see in almost any Baptist church of that size. While this is better than some other arrangements I've seen (such as the all-too-common "speakers facing into the chancel only" setup), it does tend to create a sort of two-dimensional sound field.

I've long believed (and tried to convince customers) that organ speakers, just like real pipes, are best left out in the open whenever possible, so the sound can go out in a 360 degree spherical pattern, reflecting off every surface in the room. It would be unacceptably intrusive to place organ speakers out in the open in a church like Johnson Ferry (but OTOH, look at those grotesque sound system speakers hanging everywhere!). It's only when a church is totally willing to abandon their idea that the organ belongs behind this decorative grille and nowhere else that there can be the freedom to let the organ truly come alive in that space. And perhaps attain the "transparency" that we would so love to hear!

[myorgan]

I wonder if the heat situation has been resolved in the chambers by Walker?

Michael

[Vebo]

Thank you all so much for sharing your knowledge with me! Once again I have learned so much from this place!

[Vebo]

Micheal, I thought the heat situation was in the console?

[myorgan]

Nope. The boards and amplifiers were in the speaker chambers (I believe), and were not properly vented or air conditioned. Depending on how the ventilation and air conditioning have been resolved, as well as how the speakers are powered, it could affect the new setup. However, I'm sure Walker has probably addressed that already.

Michael

[mrdc2000]

Micheal, I thought the heat situation was in the console?

There is very little heat generated in todays organ designs. Especially if they are using Class 4 amplifiers, which run cool even while cranking out max power.

[myorgan]

MrDC2000,

Will Class 4 amps provide the continuous power needed for organs (especially the bass frequencies)?

Michael

[Vebo]

Link to streaming video was posted on Facebook earlier today:

https://vimeo.com/366495727

[Admin]

For the convenience of readers I've embedded this video.
https://organforum.com/forums/articl...-share-a-video