Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.

[Guest]

Working on design for my home organ and need some inspiration. What is the typical rank analysis, pitch footage, pipe count etc for a 3 rank Moller Artiste? Is the spec standardized or where there various models?

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.

i don't know for sure but a guess a typical artiste 3 ranker would be:



16/8/4/2 Gedeckt

8/4 Diapason

8/4 String



for my own personal taste I would drop the 8/4 string and go with a 8/4 Dulciana that you'd also have at TC as a 16' as well..and make it a 4 rank and include a Dulciana Celeste. :)

[m&m's]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.



[quote user="NYCFarmboy"]i don't know for sure but a guess a typical artiste 3 ranker would be:

16/8/4/2 Gedeckt
8/4 Diapason
8/4 String

for my own personal taste I would drop the 8/4 string and go with a 8/4 Dulciana that you'd also have at TC as a 16' as well..and make it a 4 rank and include a Dulciana Celeste. :)[/quote]

Pretty close. The Artist String goes to 2', and is used as the 2' Octave in the Great. The 2' Gedeckt is the top in the Swell.

I agree with you-use the Dulciana, and add the Dulciana Celeste. If the Celeste is voiced right, it will also serve as a Flute Celeste against the 8' Gedeckt.Then add an Oboe, of course with the 16' octave to use in the Pedal.

If you have more funds to put into it, I have more ideas.

[Guest]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.



Thanks for the information. I like your idea about the Dulcian as a 16' T.C. also. Would you also suggest this for the 8' Reed, perhaps at 16' and 4'? I have been brainstorming over the stoplist for an organ with the following analysis for several weeks. I have a few of my own ideas, but am interested in the ideas of others. Would love to see other stoplist suggestions for a two manual and pedal organ of 61/61/32 compass derived from the following. The reed rank has yet to be obtained and I am open to suggestions on what type of reed to use, as it will be the only reed rank in the organ. All of the pipework is 1926 Estey, that was being used in a "total unification" scheme. I am trying to apply unification a bit more judiciously.

A. 16' Bourdon 32 notes

B. 8' Dulciana 85 notes

C. 8' T.C. Dulciana Celeste 49 notes

D. 4' Principle 73 notes

E. 4' Flute 73 notes

F. 8' Reed(as yet to be obtained...suggestions welcome)

Most of the schemes I have come up with so far involve five to six stops on each of the two manuals and pedal with the three usual unison couplers. I have several options as far as the flute rank goes from a stopped wooden gedeckt, a Moller Koppel Flute(large scale), an open metal flute or even a harmonic flute. All of these except for the Moller flute came from the same organ. Since each family of organ tone is only represented in one rank, for the most part, things need to be kind of multi-functional, so I am open to suggestions as far as which flute rank to use.

[Guest]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.

I like the ideas for the Dulciana, it just might be middle of the road enough to celeste against the flute also. I think a 4' pedal principle and 4' pedal reed are valuable too. Is an Oboe a pretty good multipurpose reed, I guess the right kind could serve for solo and chorus function if it were wired for 16/8/4.

[Guest]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.



I'd definately go dulciana or gemshorn. Also I'd go for an oboe. You could fatten it up w/ an 8' flute (or a 4' flute too) if necessary. Also, wonder if you could wire a 2 2/3 from the celeste? I played a small Wicks that had done that and it proved quite valuable. (That instrument is at Peachtree Road Lutheran.If I remember it was7 ranks: gt 8' Flute, 8' gemshorn, 4' principal, 2' flute, 2 rank mixture, krumhorn; sw 8' copola, 8' gemshorn, 8' celeste, 4' flute, 2 2/3 nazard, 2' flute, krumhorn)

[Guest]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.

I have thought about deriving the 2 2/3' from the Dulciana as to do so from the Principle would make it too loud. Would you really want to do this from the Celeste as it is purposely detuned?

[davidecasteel]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.



[quote user="Allen Colson"]I have thought about deriving the 2 2/3' from the Dulciana as to do so from the Principle would make it too loud. Would you really want to do this from the Celeste as it is purposely detuned? [/quote]I'm only guessing, but I suspect that Ludwig Tone's suggestion to use the celeste for the 2 2/3' is based on the fact that even-tempered pipes don't provide the correct frequencies for the fifth-sounding mutations anyway, and the slightly detuned pipes of the celeste might just be a closer match to the frequencies of the 3rd harmonics than the "straight" rank. Of course, this would be true only if the celeste were off-pitch in the right direction.

David

[Guest]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.

That is an interesting idea, it might make the mutation blend more cohesively if tuned right. I which direction would the Celeste have to be off unison, and by how much? I am used to seeing sharp Celestes, but would it be more beneficial in cases where it is to be used as a mutation too, for it to be tuned flat?

[Guest]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.

...Or sharp to the exact degree that the tempered thirds are sharp? Would it be also ok to draw the 1 3/5' stop from the same rank?

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.

I have a 1 3/5' from a Salicional presently on my home pipe organ and it is QUITE biting..and the tuning issue bothers me more and more over time.....so much so that I'm inclined to just get a real "Tierce" rank rather than use the unit...

....but I've not tried the Dulciana rank at that mutation..I'll give that a whirl! :)



I only use is as part of a unit mixture. I should try it from the Dulciana and let you know! :)

[m&m's]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.



[quote user="Allen Colson"]I like the ideas for the Dulciana, it just might be middle of the road enough to celeste against the flute also. I think a 4' pedal principle and 4' pedal reed are valuable too. Is an Oboe a pretty good multipurpose reed, I guess the right kind could serve for solo and chorus function if it were wired for 16/8/4.[/quote]

I am assuming that this instrument is for your house, and that is why I recommend the Oboe. If you could find the 4' and 16' extensions, that would make it that much better. Then you could have a 16' Bassoon in the pedal. Randy Newman, in New Jersey (he advertises on the Church Organ Trader website) has a Trompette that is complete from 16' through 4', but it would be a bit much in a small space.

The Dulciana Celeste would need to be tuned on the flat side to serve as a Twelth, although, frankly, i don't have any problem with the Twelth coming from the regular Dulciana (not the Celeste). A Twelth isn't that far off of the tempered scale. A Seventeenth is a ifferent story, as far as tuning goes, although again, if using it in solo work, I still don't have a problem with it coming from a unified rank. But, for it to work, it must be a softer rank, without a lot of overtones. I am not surprised to hear Farmboy say that he wasn't happy with it coming from a unified Salicional!

[Guest]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.



I agree, I think a Salicional could be a bit too biting and it might sound better derived from the Dulciana. It is far more pleasing to have a cohesive tone that is the summation of all the component ranks, a smooth blending without any one thing sticking out too much.

I may forget about having a seventeenth at all and just use the twelfth since this is a house organ in a relatively small space.

[davidecasteel]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.



To perform properly as a celeste, thedetuned rank must differ from the primary rank by only a small amount (a few Hz) and this must be true throughout the entire spectrum of the stop; however, the differences between true pitch for a 2 2/3' rank and those derived from an 8' rank in even temperament will be much greater in the higher pitches (in Hz) than at the lower ones. Attempting to detune the celeste rank to provide proper 2 2/3' pitches would destroy its celeste qualities in the upper range. Although the flatting for celeste purposes could reduce the discrepancy for a unitized 2 2/3' stop, it is not a complete fix. It is even possible that at some places in the scale using the celeste rank might sound even worse than using the straight rank. I suppose it would be possible to selectively use some pipes from the straight rank and others from the celeste rank, but it would probably require some experimentation to decide which to use where. Mathematical analysis only goes so far--the ear is the final arbiter.

David

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: Moller Artiste analysis, information needed.

regards reeds... i'd recommend a very gentle oboe..... works great as a TC 16 stop on the manuals....and at 8' and 4 as well of course.




Vox humana's are tempting for space reasons for home organs.....but mine is quite fussy tuning wise. If you can find a Reuter Vox humana I would recommend that over other builders....mainly because my own sounds more "clarinet' like than others i have heard.