I just found this link when I was preparing a post for the future, and thought I'd share it here. For those with Synesthesia, this could be quite a find: https://schoenstein.com/articles/Sch...olor-Wheel.pdf
What do y'all think?
Michael
Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
It's an interesting wheel, but it's not quite right. It's sort of trying to jam a much more complicated set of systems into a simple chart. The reality is you can make reeds that have all the different vocal sounds, including things like oo. Cavaille-Coll's reeds should be firmly in the middle of the "eh" axis. You can have flue pipes that have a reedy "ah" sound. I'd dispute a lot of pipe assignments for instance Erzhaler. It can have a lot of variety to its sound depending on design and the nature of the room. It's an interesting chart, but at best it's an oversimplification, at worst, it's rather misleading as to the actual diversity of pipe organ sounds.
Interesting and as always something can be learned form it. It might be very helpful to the beginning organist. It is a clever bit of sales gimmickry. Some companies are very good at sales gimmicks.Like assuming the name of a well known builder.
It's an interesting chart, but at best it's an oversimplification, at worst, it's rather misleading as to the actual diversity of pipe organ sounds.
Let me play "devil's advocate." You are proposing that many pipes can be voiced in a range of ways. My question is, "Should pipes be voiced in many different ways?" Arguably, the company would propose that a pipe should be voiced in a very narrow range, rather than in many different ways. An organ builder should be working toward cohesiveness of the ensemble vs. diversity at the expense of ensemble. Otherwise, it's just a box of whistles.
Cavaille-Coll's reeds should be firmly in the middle of the "eh" axis. You can have flue pipes that have a reedy "ah" sound. I'd dispute a lot of pipe assignments for instance Erzhaler.
Since this company is Schoenstein, and this document related their tonal philosophy, should they specifically follow Cavaille-Coll in their voicing, or should they follow their own voicing rules within certain parameters?
Just askin'?
Michael
Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
I hate to get involved in a augment of opinions, but it was often said one could take all of EM Skinner flutes, throw them in a pile and randomly grab 61 pipes to make up a full rank. In other words, "what's in a name."
I think a problem arose when we had many second rate organ builders. Companies like Moller and Wicks usually made stocks of pipes and placing a Bordon under the name of Quintadenna was not uncommon.( don't forget the ever ubiquitous Flute d' Amore) They also tended to use only a couple of angles on their languid so the pipes came with a preset tonal pallet. But they were able to undersell their competitors, thus a plethora of Gambas on one organ called Salicional on another.
Haha, thanks for sticking up for the Devil Michael! As Pat says, it's an opinion, but yes. A Cavaille-Coll organ is carefully designed so everything works together perfectly. Skinner's flutes may be interchangeable, but Cavaille-Coll's were not. The same with an organ say by Hill. It all works together because everything is optimized to work as a unit, and that includes the tone colour of each stop. If you think an organ is just a box of whistles, it may work for some organs, but say a Romantic chorus falls apart. Should an organ builder stick to a particular philosophy, as Schoenstein? Maybe, I've never heard a Schoenstein organ, but I know both Hill and Cavaille-Coll don't follow the chart, and their organs are amazing. I don't think Schoenstein is superior to either of them, but I'm willing to be proven wrong! In the Cavaille-Coll/ Hill universe, there always has to be a balance between cohesiveness and diversity. Too cohesive, and the organ is boring. Too diverse, and stops don't work together.
Should Schoenstein "do their own thing," or follow Cavaille-Coll? Again it depends. Cavaille-Coll and Hill had an artistic vision, and their organs are perfectly designed to match that vision, and form a cohesive whole. Most modern builders seem to be just putting pipes together. You would think Schoenstein is doing what Cavaille-Coll and Hill did, except their understanding of what makes a great organ is not up to that level. Aa in many things, if your theoretical knowledge is lacking, the execution also lacks. They don't have to make an organ that sounds like Cavaille-Coll, but I think they should learn the lessons of the great organ builders and make instruments that work beautifully together as a whole. I suppose their diagram is better than nothing, but a colourful wheel does not a good organ make! Their organs may be good, but are they Cavaille-Coll or Hill good? I suppose they may not want to be that good, and that's ok for them, but I want organ builders to be that good! If we're judging the usefulness or accuracy of a diagram, should we say it's right if it's going to make a second best organ, or should we propose a more accurate system that's going to help make a first rate organ?
They also tended to use only a couple of angles on their languid so the pipes came with a preset tonal pallet. But they were able to undersell their competitors, thus a plethora of Gambas on one organ called Salicional on another.
So, do you think this may be what Schoenstein is attempting, or are they truly differentiating between stops? Because of their representative instruments, I suspect the company is truly trying to do the right thing and bring a specific definition between the stops on the organ vs. randomly reaching in a bin of pipes and slapping a name on it.
Full disclosure, I have never heard a Schoenstein organ, but I know many of them are notable. I suspect they're trying to do the right thing, and this is an attempt to disclose that to the customer (i.e. not a sales gimmick).
If we're judging the usefulness or accuracy of a diagram, should we say it's right if it's going to make a second best organ, or should we propose a more accurate system that's going to help make a first rate organ?
Short answer, "Yes."
Michael
Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
Schoenstein is a very able company who tends toward the Unit organ as far I can tell, many composite-hybrid flues.While they often have large stop lists they don't always have a one to one rank to name connection.There are several videos on you tube of their instruments.I must say that the room is the most important stop on the organ.
My comments above were in regard to the factory organ builders of a time gone bye.
Advertising has always been a big part of the pipe organ game and all the big companies had materials and many had records they gave to prospective buyers.
It might have something to do with their intended audience.
If they have developed this colour wheel to be able to address people with little-to-no organ knowledge, this would help to explain why certain stops are chosen (or why certain stoplists are created), and perhaps to help avoid a situation where someone asks unwisely for a palette that is too limited, or too unbalanced.
-- every communication piece is most effective when the audience, message, and context are fully considered when crafting the piece. The Schoenstein color wheel makes sense for the hypothetical audience regeron mentions. It would be less useful for builders and pipe voicers who need to make a specific organ perform optimally in the space it will be in.
-- synesthesia is experienced almost always uniquely in the combination of senses and in the particular effects generated by those combinations. For example, one person may see the letter 'e' may be seen as a dark gray with slightly vibrating yellow edges while another may see it as a glowing dark red--this doesn't consider the person who sees the same letter and feels a glass like smoothness in their finger tips.
3) Having studied (through course work and independently) data analysis techniques including data visualization, there a variety of techniques to use BUT the biggest challenge is not putting everything into one visualization ("kitchen sink" approach) that confuse understanding. There are at least seven or more types of (not mutually distinct) data in the color wheel which is a recipe for guaranteed confusion except possibly for the single person who designed/implemented it. Once you get to three types of data, it is very challenging to have the audience understand what you meant to do with the visualization (again, the person creating it knows but very few can usually grok it.) If interested in the topic, Stephen Few's books are designed for as quick an understanding as you can get. One more modern data visualization color practice point: message delivery medium (paper, screen, sky-writing) and viewer color perception (color blindnesses) require careful consideration and execution using color.
4) I'll try to post a couple of visualizations comparing pipe families (if I can remember in what book and where the book is) that take a more mentally-digestible approach presenting the data just a couple of variables (mutually distinct) at a time.
This is a good post. I agree that you can't try to put this much information in one wheel. Maybe three factors at most, and you'd need a separate one for reeds and flues.
I'll add that I've always found the names used for stops on unit organs annoyingly counterfactual. When using one rank, if one manuals' stop is labeled Gambe 8' and the other manual's stop is labeled Salicional 8', there is no sound difference between them but the stop labels represent non-existent differences between them. Although marketing purgatory, labeling both stops String 8' would be clearer and hella more honest.
"Does Madam prefer the Rosso Desert or the Desert Red chapeau?"
"I'll take the red hat, and, please stop using nonsensical marketing jargon when speaking to me!"
One of the reasons for sharing the color wheel is because of my training in education. We learn that some students learn by the B&W text they see on the page, while others remember images. When I color-code my written schedule I deliver to the rest of the school, on numerous occasions teachers have thanked me for providing it in color, as it helps them remember the schedule without always having to pull it out and look at it.
It struck me the same is true of this chart. Those who are familiar with Allen's Tone Cards (Alterables) will know that Strings are represented by a Yellow color, Reeds are Red, and Percussions are Green. Unfortunately, that's where the similarities end–presumably because it didn't make sense to print multiple-color cards, as too many would be confusing. However, I still use those colors in searching for the cards I need to use for a particular piece. That fact alone narrows down the location I need to look!
Similarly, when I see the word "Gamba," I hear a very strong/keen String sound which will hold its own in the Great. When I hear Salicional, I hear a similarly-toned, but softer String usually suitable in the Swell to be used with a Voix Celeste. In the case of the Erzähler, I only knew I preferred the Erzähler over the Dulciana before. After looking at the chart, I now have a means of naming why I prefer the Erzähler and its companion Celeste over a Dulciana and/or its companion Celeste. They both have their place, but they are uniquely different sounds with the Erzähler having less fundamental in the tone than the Dulciana.
When listening to the samples of various stops on the Encyclopedia of Organ Stops (which happens to be down right now), I sometimes noted a great tonal variation in different samples of the same stop. I understand now it's probably because of the builder. I have no doubt different builders might see the stops listed on the wheel differently, but it makes sense to me, and I found it quite useful. Part of understanding a stop on the organ is possessing the vocabulary necessary to describe it so someone else hears the same sound in their head.
Maybe that makes me a low-information voter, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!😜
Michael
Last edited by myorgan; 07-23-2024, 05:49 AM.
Reason: Fix link.
Way too many organs to list, but I do have 5 Allens:
I'm sure you know what Erzhaler means, but I find it's one of the most uniquely varied stops. I've never met one I didn't like (In Hauptwerk anyway!), but each one seems to be different, yet still good. This also applies to Erzhaler celestes, which I have uniformly found delightful. I've heard it say that they are all so different because of how they interact with the room, which is probably true. I think it's thanks primarily to EM Skinner for popularizing them. Dulciana is a different story though. Among English/American/Canadian Romantic organs, it's rather overused, and often too quiet and indistinct to be useful. It's one of those stops that's probably more useful in person than in a recording, where if it's too quiet it's sometimes almost inaudible. I find it's rare at least in Hauptwerk organs for it to have a celeste, and that's probably for the best!
The Gamba being keen I think is thanks to Cavaillé-Coll, who always voiced his Viole de Gambe rather keen, and a lot of Romantic builders took this after him. There were a lot of developments in the Romantic period to string stops to allow them to have such a keen sound and yet have stable speech (primarily to the mouth). The string instrument it's based on and Baroque examples aren't that keen. The Salicional comes from the Latin "Salix," or willow. So it's supposed to be a willow flute, which is usually really long and narrow (and thus tends toward string tone). Given this, I usually think about it as half string, half flute. I think the best examples, such as Cavaillé-Coll's, have this character.
I also really like diagrams, but it annoys me when they're wrong or poorly made. In a way, it seems sort of false to me if they're wrong. It's like they're wasting my brain time, making falsity easy to remember or reinforcing bad organization. Nothing better than a good diagram though. Maybe I should make better diagrams of this!
That's just extra air. If he worked little more, he could probably get the extra air eliminated by changing the fipple a bit more. My father and brothers used to make these, but alas, they never passed down the secrets of building them to me. I think they used ash rather than willow, though.
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