Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

[Guest]

Allen-- I do not think so! Maybe, their organs are decent, but the customer service and after sales service is crappy! I called the salesperson with a voicing question regarding our church organ, and she told me that they do not authorize for the organist to do voicing. The salesperson told me that "voicing" is a church decision and the governing board or pastor should give me approval. Diane Bish advertised on one of her T.V. programs that the organist can customize voicing on an Allen to his/her preferences. I e-mailed Allen on Ask Allen and the District Manager told me that I could really mess things up if I didn't know what I was doing and for me to leave things alone. His e-mail was carbon copied to my salesperson. I e-mailed him back saying Allen made false advertisement with the custom voicing options. The sales manager then responded that the organ DOES NOT belong to me but belongs to the church. He told me that I should have a pastor or member of the governing board contact Jordan Kitts and approve me to do the voicing. The District Manager told me that Jordan Kitts has a copy of the voicing that I signed off on originally. I am the Music Director at my church and am responsible for maintaining/playing the instruments. He also said that Jordan Kitts has the right to charge if I get the organ voicing off balance.
My response to him was that I didn't realize my original request was a federal offense! I wouldn't recommend Allen or Jordan Kitts to anyone! Also, I told him that I was the one to sign off first on the original voicing without the permission of the pastor or governing board members.

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

I understand your frustration, but they do have a point. You don't own the instrument. I own my own R311 and I can voice it anyway I want and have the DOVE software. I suggest you simply get the church board to write a letter giving you a free hand with the organ. The dealer can have it on file and thus can respond to you, without fear of being sued by the church (the owner of record of the instrument). If your board, really has no objection to what happens with the organ (or no knowledge of organs at all) this should be fairly easy to obtain. And yes, if you do obtain DOVE and don't know what you are doing, you can trash the voicing and the dealer would have to come out and reload the organ (which can be a lengthy process and it is definately NOT covered by warranty). Good luck in your quest!

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Is there no wayy of either saving the current voicing before making a change, or at least returning the organ to the factory default settings? Although I do not have the voicing software for my Johannus Opus 20, I have seen it demonstrated, and would not be worried in the least about experimenting with the voicing, as I could always recover from mistakes. This would also address the seemingly imperious attitude of the sales people!

Paul White
Melbourne

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Yes, with DOVE you do need to save your setting, and back up frequently as you go along. However, DOVE is not for novices or people who are not very comfortable with computers. You can get into some real trouble if you don't know what you are doing. The key issue in my post was that if you are not the owner of the organ then it's not your money if you do make a "fatal" mistake. If you own the instrument then feel free to do what you want to do with the organ. The best thing a church organist can do with their church instrument is to get the church to authorize the dealer to come out and voice it to the organists' preference.

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

I'm surprised that you didn't receive the voicing software with your Johannus. As the owner you are entitled to have a copy of the software. I was given a copy when I purchased mine, however, I was basically told that I was on my own with the voicing (I also had to purchase the cables to hook it up to the computer). If you are somewhat computer savvy and understand some basics such as RAM and ROM and can figure out what each channel of sound is outputting you are ok. I own a Sweelinck 20 and have been trying to voice the instrument for sometime, it does get rather frustrating, however once you get the sound you are looking for, it all seems worth the while. But the nice feature is that if you do make a mistake (like you said) the organ's internal computer hold the default voicing without losing it forever.
The problem I've had with the Johannus is the after sale service. I have made numerous calls (over the past 2 years) to my dealer to get external speakers for the instrument and have not had any luck (you think they would want the money). I even talked to the VP of Johannus (Gert) at an AGO convention and he very quickly referred me to my dealer without giving me any information that I could use. I chose the Johannus because of the price; for what I have on my instrument (47 voices & 61 equivalent pipe ranks) I would have paid almost 4 times the price for a Rodgers or Allen. But due to the service that I'm not receiving from Johannus, I'm seriously considering trading it in on a Rodgers, which is smaller but in my opinion the best instrument out there

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

It is unfortunate that you've had a less than satisfactory experience with your local dealer.
Johannus makes a wonderful instrument, and as you alluded to in your post, MUCH more affordable than either Rodgers or Allen. There is simply NO excuse for a dealer to ignore a customer and a potential sale. Is the church organ business thriving to such an extent that dealers can pick and choose whether or not they want additional business? I hardly think so. (I would be in contact with Gert once again, and demand to know why one of HIS dealers persists in ignoring your inquiries) At that point, based upon action taken by the company, I would make my final decision.

Without exception, all electronic organ builders have huge profit margins built into their external speaker systems, and their subwoofers, in particular, are usually designed for acoustical settings much larger than the average residence. In that light, their are several loudspeaker and subwoofer manufacturers out there that will save you considerable expense vs. the organ builder's products, and are of even higher quality If you would like further information, contact me at [email protected].

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

I agree with you on PHOENIX organs. I heard the Rodgers at the Crown Centre in Pensacola, the largest Rodgers built (till '02) and played a 55 stop 3m PHOENIX three days later and nearly fell off the bench. The Phoenix had GUTS and sounded so much like pipes I had to see the speakers. IT IS THAT GOOD!.

People who think Allen and Rodgers are the only organs worth considering should get a demo of the Phoenix at www.phoenixorgans.com. If Rodgers is the Cadillac of organs, Phoenix is the Rolls Royce and Walker the Bentley.

I play a Rodgers at home and I like it, it's about 5 years old. It doesn't sound as real as a Phoenix. I would get a Walker if I could afford it, but Phoenix organs are priced more like a Rodgers or Allen.

Allen is a safe buy for an ignorant church organ committee. The sound is over processed - too bland. The Allen dealer claimed no pipe organ has as pure a Principal as an Allen, HE WAS RIGHT!!! They are well made, but so were Hammonds.

Johannus sounds wonderful as individual stops, but it only gets louder as you add stops (the ensembles fall flat) the Briston is based on the same system and does the same thing for the most part. The consoles look good, but boy are they cheap made.

Walker, Phoenix, Rodgers, Allen, Briston, Johannus.

That's the way I stack them.

[organist777]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

You can find info on the Phoenix Organ here:
http://www.qualityorgans.com

[NYCFarmboy]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Are there any Phoenix organs in the NYC area? I'd love to try one out.

I'm actualling installing a pipe organ in my home which is my church's old organ.. A Reuter 6 rank...http://www.nycfarmboy.com/borchers/index.html

The church replaced the pipe organ with a new mid level Allen...which has a very nice console design, and would probalby sound decent if the church would just spring for some decent speakers... the only thing that really bothers me on the Allen is the VERY CHEAP grade of plastic they use on the keys! It looks like milk carton plastic to me...very very very cheap...which is a pity as the console looks great otherwise.

[organist777]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Yes, there are Phoenix Organs in the NYC area. The person to contact to see them is the dealer for that area, Bob O'Neill. You can find his contact information here:
http://www.qualityorgans.com/links.htm

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Oh, yes you can do your own voicing. However be prepared...the Allen system is very sophisticated. I approach voicing on the Allen Renaissance Heritage organ (which is the cats' meow if you please) as the same as vocing pipe organs. Once you get into it, the whole rank must be done a note at a time or in parameters and sections with levels and contours etc. This should be done at the very beginning during installation after you have rung out the organ and decided what should be what...just like a pipe organ.

In my case the 4 manual Heritage is combined with pipe ranke from the existing Schantz and note by note voicing to pipes is necessarry for exact blend. Most pipe organ companies that are worth their salt, allow at least one full day per rank for voicing. Same applies to Allen.

I might add that you need to establish a relationship with the person who does voicing in the your area. In general there are voicers and then there are VOICERS. Some dealers do not have technicians capable of the finesse you might require. You would face the same problems with pipes in any case. I happen to have an ideal situation in Houston, TX with the company here. They are exclusively Allen dealers whereas many dealers are general music stores etc. and cannot fully address voicing concerns beyond a minimum. You may have one of those.

I have found Allen to be very concerned about how their organs are represented in public. Several of the Allen artists have played my instrument and give comments. This would be a good strategy for you. Believe me, there is a way to get it done the way you want it, if you know the right people and enroll them in your project rather than be too confrontational.
Regards, Anthony

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Ah yes, the line up of quality. Since I have personally owned a Rodgers 3 manual and Allen and heard and visited with owners, churchs with Alborn, Johannus, Walker etc., I have found a thread that runs through it all. That thread is comprised of several considerations i.e. 1. Dealer and technical assistance and response after the sale. 2. Business history and success 3. Research and Dev. 4. American ownership. And last: 5. What are the largest churches, music depts, etc purchasing and installing.

In my investigations I find that there is only one domestic company that can positively fill in the blanks of the above points. That is Allen. If you investigate fully these areas of interest in regard to Allen, you will find a 99% positive response. Now, if you wish to make an issue regarding a tone here and there or a Principal or Flute characteristic, then be my guest. However, I find that what I personally want, is an organ the can play the literature, can be repaired immediately, has all of the console assists, is owned and made in America (which is important) and is recognized by top organ artists. I do not want to have an instrument with non standard parts, that is in the process of being a prototype, or is very good here and there but has a weak spot or two. This leads me to outages and problems that I will not tolerate just to have a more interesting pipe sound here and there.

So I would rate these organs this way: Allen, Rodgers, Walker, Phoenix, Johannus.

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Go to Allen's website and look at the Heritage model. They have a builder page...you can design your own instrument. I did not like the plastic same as you. The ivor coverings are superb! Chas

[Guest]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Re: Farmboy's complaint about the Allen keys, I believe a buyer can select a upgraded keyboard. I have a Allen Theatre III I bought 2nd hand. It was originally built about 1991 and has wonderful keys. The white keys have a dull finish like natural ivory and all the keys have a wood base (maple??). The keys have a very pipe organ like touch/balance to them.

[clumber]

Re: The best electronic (pipe) organs.

Can anyone rip the Keble College CD and make it available for us to download and copy? Surely Copeman Hart wouldn't be hurt if we all had a copy of the CD!