While I'm waiting for the oil to do its thing...

[Guest]

Hello, I'm a new member here with a "new" Hammond M-3. I'm trying to be as patient as possible while the oil works its way through everything, but I had a question about the start and run motors. I've been manually spinning the flywheels and such to help the oil move along, but I still haven't figured out what should or shouldn't be moving at this point.

The start motor runs, but there is no movement on the run motor's side. The run motor switch appears to be working because after the 8 seconds or so of the start motor running, the run motor switch will cut off the start motor and that magnetic resistance thump can be felt when manually cranking the the shaft. All of this seems to be good news - just that the oil needs to keep working within the generator (it's still only been less than 2 weeks).

What I haven't figured out yet is how the run motor is supposed to function when first started. When I manually crank the shaft with everything off, I can only go one revolution because of the 2 wire pins (one parallel , one perpendicular) on the collars. I'm certainly not going to force another revolution after they've touched, but if the oiling is successful, should I be able to spin the shaft endlessly? I would like to avoid removing the two springs between the flywheels to truly test out the movement if I don't need to.

Thanks! I've already learned a lot here at the forum.

[TheAdmiral]

The generator along with both motors should spin freely and easily (endlessly as you put it). You can take out 4 bolts on the run motor "L" bracket and separate it from the shaft to see if the problem is in it or the generator. You shouldn't have to force anything. The run motor won't work unless the generator is already spinning from the start motor running. You may want to spray WD40 into the 2 oil cups (center and right) to help if you determine the generator is sticking. That will speed things up. Then put the Hammond oil in afterwards and keep oiling (but not the one at the run motor....don't fill that one. It should only have a moist sponge). You never know what kind of oil someone else has put in there over the years and it needs flushing if that's the case. You could also have a bad run motor. The run switch does not cut off the start motor. Only releasing the start switch does that.

[Guest]

Thanks for the reply.

From what I've gathered, the organ was built in 1960, the previous owners have had it for 20 years but never used it or oiled it. There is only one entry on the maintenance sheet in the bench of it being oiled in 1960. I'm hesitant to put WD-40 in there since so many people say, "Oh god, no!" but I can certainly follow it up with more Hammond Oil. I think I was pretty lucky obtaining this organ (for free), as it appears that it was kept in a home for many years and not used much. However, I will have to replace the AC cord (typical cracked, brittle stuff). I would certainly do this myself were it not for the fear of electrocution. There is a MITA-certified repair person near where I live, and I will most likely pay to have that done for me.

Do you think there could be a power issue? I've tried different outlets, just in case, and so far I have not seen any loose, worn or poorly-soldered wires on the motors or switches. The amp tubes are all original and seem to light up fine.

One other question: I haven't really figured out how the generator and run motor are supposed to "interact" with each other when the run motor cuts on. By this I mean how the two "sides" of the shaft should be located when off and on - you know, where they meet to the right of the collar with the spring and parallel/perpendicular pins. I can slide the left "side" of it (with the flywheels on it) left and right along the shaft a little bit, but how exactly should a properly functioning run motor move this? The only thing I have to go on (this is obviously my first project) is a video online:

http://vimeo.com/11611368

The motors in this video are acting the exact same way as mine, except the flywheels don't spin. I don't want to burn out the start motor.

[Guest]

FYI - I've read this thread, as it appears to be very similar:

http://www.organforum.com/forums/sho...-%28w-video%29

[handyczech]

There is no mention if you know how to start the organ, so I do not mean to insult you.

The start switch may be a convendtional switch, or it may be a plunger, depending on how old this organ really is, or if anyone messed around with it.

1. Activate and hold the start switch to the slow count of 8. You will hear a click and a whirring noise, rising slightly in pitch.
2. At the count of 8, the whirring sound will stabilize, and you should SIMULTANEOUSLY turn on the run switch and hold them both for the count of 4. The whirring sound will waver slightly during this phase.
3. release the start switch.

In your description, it sounds like you were trying to turn the run motor by hand with the reum swich on and the tubes lit. If there is power to the run motor, and it is not turning by itself, it may be difficult to turn by hand. Don't do that with the power on.

Get a service manual and read the principles of operation. The start motor gets the generator and run motor moving to a higher than normal RPM, then the held run switch in conjunction with the start switch adds power to the run motor, and a resistor to slow things down to the design speed, and the run motor should take over upon release of the start switch.

If there is any drag in the generator, or if the start motor is gummed up and turning, but not fast enoug, the thing won't work.

[Guest]

No problem, I've done my research but there are still many things for me to learn :)

With all motors off, I can only rotate it once - when those collar pins touch. With the start motor on, nothing turns by itself.

I turned the motor by hand with the run motor on because I had read that if it has some magnetic resistance when moving - a thump, thump, thump rather than a normal smooth spin - that chances are the run motor is fine but the generator itself isn't yet fully oiled.

If the consensus is that it's okay to squirt WD-40 down the two funnels, then follow it up with Hammond Oil, I would like to do this today. I should also mention that one of the threads on the start motor side was torn, so I added oil directly to where I thought it needed. Before I did this, the start motor shaft was completely stuck. It now moves smoothly.

[handyczech]

If it was that dry, the vibrato scanner may also be frozen or close to it.

[8painting]

Just let the oil take.

Might be a week.

Are you in a real big rush?

[Guest]

It's certainly not anyone's Christmas gift, so it can wait! :)

[geoelectro]

If the consensus is that it's okay to squirt WD-40 down the two funnels, then follow it up with Hammond Oil, I would like to do this today.

Actually no, WD-40 should be applied directly to the wheel bearings. It should not be put into the capillary oiling system.

Geo

[ShadyJoe]

Please listen to Geo.

[jdoc]

wd40 wars again?

[Guest]

How about rich, creamery butter? Or dolphin tears? :) It's cool; I'll wait it out.

[jdoc]

Oil of Olay make your tonewheels wrinkle free!

[johnny b3]

To answer your question about the run/generator interaction. I'm fairly sure the system spins "towards" you, so clockwise if you're looking at the organ directly from the run motor side. The springs and parallel/perpendicular springs are just there to dampen vibration (iirc) and only serve to couple the Run motor and generator without permanently coupling them...err...not the cleverest way to say it. When everything words well, the shafts just rotate together...

You can grab the shaft in one of two places - one, to the left of the parallel/perpendicular spring connection - if so, you're turning the motor shaft, and if you can turn it freely, great! When the Run switch is activated with the generator off, (and you shouldn't really do this for any length of time) the motor should lock up (or should it go thump thump thump, i'm not sure)...The motor is probably good. If the generator is gummed up, you will only be able to turn the motor shaft until the coupling springs connect again after 360 degrees...all this is normal with a stuck generator. Second, If you grab the generator shaft to the right of the spring couplings, you should not encounter any resistance. If so, the generator is stuck. No biggie. just wait it out.

Furthermore, you say the Start motor works (you can hear it) but the generator is stuck. I've seen one specific problem often and think it may be pertinent to your situation: Look into the generator with a flashlight by the start motor. This motor's shaft is spring loaded and should A) have a gear which moves in and out on the axis of its drive shaft; and B) mate with a gear on the generator which also is spring loaded and should move back and forth (the purpose of which is to ensure smooth mating between the gears when the dead stopped generator is suddenly engaged by the fast moving start motor. I've seen some terribly stuck "mating" gears on the generator side even after the start motor is confirmed to be working properly. I'm guessing the mating gear in your generator is stuck in the "in" position. Use a long screwdriver to test the mating gear. If it is stuck i've only been able to free it by dousing the gear/shaft with oil and pry like heck with a long screw driver. Gotta be careful to not disturb anything (wiring, threads, gear's teeth)...

Just a thought or two! The latter may be preemptive but it'll give you something to do while you wait.

good luck. be patient.

From Geo's website:
http://www.bentonelectronics.com/startmotor.html